Admiral Scheer (PBS) vs. Mogami CA

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Admiral Beez	Admiral Scheer (PBS) vs. Mogami CA	Lead	[-]
Posts: 4574 (20-Jul-2008 05:40:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Had Japan done the smart thing and kept on good terms with the British throughout the 1920s and 1930s, and joined the British cause in WW2, and had sent a cruiser to patrol the Indian Ocean, and had encountered the pocket battleship Admiral Scheer in her Feb 1941 cruise into the Indian Ocean, how would the battle go? Cruiser Mogami http://www.combinedfleet.com/mogami_c.htm Displacement - 13,440 tons Dimensions - 649'10" x 66'3" x 19'4" Speed - 35 knots Armament - 10 x 8"/50, 8 x 5"/40 DP, up to 50 x 25mm AA, 12 x 24" TT Armour: 3.9 in belt, 1.4 in deck, 0.98 in turrets, 5.0 in magazines Aircraft: 3 × Aichi E16A reconnaissance floatplanes Admiral Scheer http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/battleships/germ_dr.htm Displacement - 11,700 tons standard; 15,900-16,200 tons full load Speed - 28 knots Arm: 2 triple 11 inch, 8 single 5.9 inch, 3 dual 4.1/65, 4 dual 37 mm, 6 20 mm, 8 21 inch TT (aw) Armor: 2.25-3 inch belt, 1.5 inch deck, 3.25-5.5 inch turrets, 6 inch CT Aircraft: one Arado 196 seaplane There's little element of surprise. You've got a faster and lighter Mogami chasing down a German PBS. Mogami will likely have two aircraft up, either of which will be a match for the Arado 196.
Joshua Kintner		#1	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 458 (20-Jul-2008 06:04:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Unlike Exeter, Mogami should be able to take a decent pounding from the Scheer before going under. But a big factor in this battle will be whether or not the Mog could bring her Long Lances into effective play. Two hits I think would definitly spell doom for Adm Scheer, and one hit could cripple her. I think in a night battle the Scheer would be toast, and in a day battle it could go 50/50 either way.
Admiral Beez		#2	[-]
Posts: 4577 (20-Jul-2008 06:10:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A night encounter will go nicely for the Germans, or at least give them the opportunity to evade detection. Admiral Scheer was outfitted with the Seetakt radar, see radar mast at http://www.radarworld.org/germany2.html, and details at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seetakt_radar, which "offered a maximum detection range against a ship-sized target of up to 220 kilometers (100 miles) on a good day, though more typically half that. Performance was otherwise similar to the earlier system, with a range accuracy of about 50 meters." IIRC, the Japanese night radar sets in 1941 on Mogami were inferior or non-existent. Japan's Type 21 air-search radar was not installed in Mogami until June 1942, over a year after this hypothetical encounter with the German takes place. Last Edited By: Admiral Beez 20-Jul-2008 06:13:57. Edited 3 times.
Michael		#3	[-]
Posts: 368 (20-Jul-2008 07:04:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Scheer may have had radar, but would she be using it? IIRC, German doctrine was generally NOT to use their radar - the thinking being that radar can be detected by others at a mich longer range than it can deteect other ships, so indiscriminate use might give away your position.
E F Draaijers		#4	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 255 (20-Jul-2008 18:24:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Given this resoning, it should be noted that the CA Admiral Scheer was not protected against 8 inch shellfire, while IJN Mogami partly was, making her the stronger of the two cruisers. Although the German gunnery was vastly superior in both weight of broadside and accuracy, complemented by radar in 1942, against more gunbarrels, but less reliable firecontroll and no radar for the Japanese, the outcome would be depending on who scores the first hit. As both could defeat eachothers armor easily, it all comes up to who is to score the first serios hit. On torpedoarmament the IJN ship is vastly superior, but it had to come in close undetected to make a change of a troepdohit on the opposing ship, or risk its torpedoes missing if fired at too far away, giving the opponent time to alter course. Admiral Scheer also has torpedoes and can threaten her opponetn too, so most likely the gunnery will be decisive, as no captain is willing to risk his ship against torpedoes. By the way, some still consider the heavy cruiser Admiral Scheer (and her sisters Admiral Graf Spee and Deutschland/Lützow) to be battleships, something they were definetely not. Germany considered these ships to be Heavy Cruisers (Schwere Kreuzer) and introduced this term officially in 1940 for these ships, after their period of propaganda purposes was finished (Panzerschiffe). Their armor was light and simmilar in scale to most other cruisers of simmilar size, although they differed in armament. In fact they were inferior in protection to the Southampton Class Light Cruisers, who were slightly smaller, but better protected.
Creeping Death1929		#5	[-]
Posts: 1037 (20-Jul-2008 18:48:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Graf Spee proved she was vulnerable to 8" SAP, which is what the Japanese AP shells basically are, when one of Exeter's shells went through her belt and almost hit her diesels and Spee had more armor than Scheer. Mogami wouldn't get radar until April 1943 after finishing her conversion to a seaplane cruiser. When their torpedoes don't detonate, the Mogamis show great durability. With her 5.5" @ 20 deg. belt over magazines and 3.9" @ 20 deg. over machinery, the 11" HE, which is what Scheer will likely use, won't do much. Mogami's virtually unprotected turrets are vulnerable, though, and we mustn't forget the vulnerable torpedoes. But Scheer's 11.1" turrets are vulnerable at most ranges to the Japanese 8" AP as well. This battle could go either way.
seasick		#6	[-]
Posts: 4874 (20-Jul-2008 21:02:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The answer is which ever ship gets the range on the other first most likely will win..
P3D		#7	[-]
Posts: 854 (21-Jul-2008 00:51:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Someone apparently hasn't got any analytical capabilities that must post such an inane comparisons instead of drawing conclusions of his own.
Admiral Beez		#8	[-]
Posts: 4579 (21-Jul-2008 01:05:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I wouldn't call this an inane comparison. We've got Japan's arguably best heavy cruiser class vs. Germany's heaviest cruiser class of WW2. Both ships are similar in size and displacement.
Capn Carl		#9	[-]
Posts: 287 (21-Jul-2008 06:16:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	P3D wrote: Someone apparently hasn't got any analytical capabilities that must post such an inane comparisons instead of drawing conclusions of his own. Many of us post such 'inane' comparisons; I think you've missed the point of them. If you just draw your own conclusions, fine. The point of them is to stimulate DISCUSSION on this BOARD about the characteristics of various ships or groups of ships. What I find inane is the replies that say 'that couldn't happen', or 'this thread is unrealistic'. Such replies are not far from writing, "I'm not going to write anything here, it's inane".
emc		#10	[-]
Posts: 3954 (21-Jul-2008 14:54:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Joshua Kintner wrote: Unlike Exeter, Mogami should be able to take a decent pounding from the Scheer before going under. But a big factor in this battle will be whether or not the Mog could bring her Long Lances into effective play. Two hits I think would definitly spell doom for Adm Scheer, and one hit could cripple her. I think in a night battle the Scheer would be toast, and in a day battle it could go 50/50 either way. I'd say Exeter did take quite a decent pounding before going under; according to the Wikipedia article, she and her two accompanying destroyers were attacked by a force of four heavy cruisers and five destroyers.
StevoJH		#11	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 294 (21-Jul-2008 17:18:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	emc wrote: Joshua Kintner wrote: Unlike Exeter, Mogami should be able to take a decent pounding from the Scheer before going under. But a big factor in this battle will be whether or not the Mog could bring her Long Lances into effective play. Two hits I think would definitly spell doom for Adm Scheer, and one hit could cripple her. I think in a night battle the Scheer would be toast, and in a day battle it could go 50/50 either way. I'd say Exeter did take quite a decent pounding before going under; according to the Wikipedia article, she and her two accompanying destroyers were attacked by a force of four heavy cruisers and five destroyers. I believe the conversation is regarding to Exeter's part in the battle of the river plate. I would like to remind everyone that the Exeter was a cut down county class heavy cruiser with only 6 8" guns instead of 8 of them. Her shells and the 6" shells of the other ships involved continually went through the armour sides and superstructure of the spee, Exeter pulled out back to the falklands for repairs, however the remaining light cruisers plus the newly arrived spee probably would have made short work of the spee had she come out (apparrently the purification system for her fuel was hit in the earlier battle, which meant she wasnt going anywhere in a hurry).
DrAdam H		#12	[-]
Posts: 106 (21-Jul-2008 17:35:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Realistically I would expect action to be joined in the area of 18,000 yards-ish during the day. Probably 8,000 yards-ish if at night. Assuming both sides have spotted each other before hand I would expect the German captain to do everything he could to avoid battle. Which with a better then 5 knot disadvantage would be hard. I would expect the Mogami's captain to charge toward his enemy to close the distance with his superior speed. I suppose the angle of intercept would depend on the situation. He would do this first of all so he could have a reasonable chance getting hits with his Long Lances. Second so he could minimize the hits on his decks do to plunging fire. Third, lets be honest, partly for reason one (to use torpedoes) and partly in the spirit of BANZI! the Japanese weren't fond of ranging tactics. They liked to get close and personal. Here is where I get unpopular. If its a daytime battle I'm voting for Scheer. Why? While Mogami is closing all Scheer has to do is maneuver to keep both turrets unmasked and unlike Spee she doesn't have to divide her fire between two separate groups coming at him from two separate angles. Mogami on the other hand would have to hit some pretty fancy angles to be able to use her aft turrets while approaching. Even her new 8" forward guns probably aren't to fond of firing head on. This will significantly reduce the number of guns she can use while closing (6x8" vs 6x11"????) or significantly increase the amount of time it takes to close. My guess (and thats all it is) is by the time she would get close enough to use torpedoes, even with better armor, she looks like Exter at Plate. Sure Scheer wasn't as well protected as Spee but she's also only facing one ship instead of three. Scheer's bigger problem will be "what now?" Shes just finished a battle with a heavy cruiser and the nearest friendly port is on the other side of Africa. Also no doubt more ships (carriers and 14" 30kt battlecruisers) are on the way to follow up. That ocean just got a LOT bigger didn't it? For a night battle at <8,000 yards? I'm going with Mogami.
seasick		#13	[-]
Posts: 4875 (21-Jul-2008 19:33:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I always have thought of Mogami as a poor CA and a Scheer as a poor CA. They both are seriously flawed and are very capable of sinking each other. The IJN would have done better th keep Mogami as a CL and the KM/RM should have built Scheer with a smaller caliber main armament. The question is that if they scored hits on each other weather or not both would sink at the same time.
E F Draaijers		#14	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 256 (21-Jul-2008 21:31:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Something else is also quite important to observe, namely the poor IJN performance in gunnery at all but the closest ranges from their 8 inch gunned cruisers (and the 14 inch or bigger gun mounted battleships as well). IJN forces at close range were pretty good, especially at night, but against targets at longer range, they performed bad (IJN Nachi and Haguro only scored 5 shell hits in total during their Java Sea campagin against Doorman's ABDA taskforce, while Ashigara expended over 400 8 inch shells to sink the USS Pillsbury and the same vessel and Myoko needed over 600 shells to sink both HMS Encounter and USS Pope. IJN Tone, with IJN Kirishima and IJN Hiei needed over 700 large shells to overwhelm USS Edsall. Not very good a record, it seems.) German gunnery was good, especially at longer range, as is shown by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in sinking HMS Glorious at ranges between 22,000 and 18,500 yards, as well as Prinz Eugen with Bismarck, scoring a first hit on HMS Hood at some 18,000 yards. Although only Prinz Eugen at the time had a functional radarset, it was not used for targetting the guns, as such radar still did not excist those days. Prinz Eugen scored a hit with her second four gun salvo. (Bismarck lost its radar before battle due to shockdamage and both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau lacked the lates fitting in 1940 and possibly had no radar when engaging HMS Glorious.)
emc		#15	[-]
Posts: 3956 (21-Jul-2008 21:48:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It's pretty indisputable that HMS Exeter got pretty badly beaten up by Graf Spee, but not badly enough to be sunk. Of course, according the the Wikipedia article, HMS Exeter was scuttled by her crew, so the by the same logic that claims Bismarck wasn't sunk by enemy action, neither was HMS Exeter. It's also pretty indisputable that IJN 8in cruisers were not one-hit wonders; there may have been design flaws, but the same could be said of most nations 8in cruisers from the same time frame.
delcyros		#16	[-]
Posts: 1812 (21-Jul-2008 21:58:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	StevoJH wrote: Her shells and the 6" shells of the other ships involved continually went through the armour sides and superstructure of the spee, Exeter pulled out back to the falklands for repairs, however the remaining light cruisers plus the newly arrived spee probably would have made short work of the spee had she come out (apparrently the purification system for her fuel was hit in the earlier battle, which meant she wasnt going anywhere in a hurry). No 6" shells went through GRAF SPEE´s main belt. The same is true for the 8" SAP hits, with one exception, an 8" SAP with inert filler (practice round). Whether or not the 8" SAP with regular filler could have defeated the 100mm @ 13 deg main belt is open to discussion. I am not sure what the ammo state was for the CL´s but it would be interesting to know. Spee used up her HE-ordenance in the action. A serious concern would be fighting doctrine. IJN fighting doctrine regularely asked for long range fighting if the visibility conditions permitted this. This would play into Scheers hands...
CA30ist		#17	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 47 (22-Jul-2008 04:49:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hello, The 297 14"/36cm shells, and 844 8"/20cm projectiles fired against EDSALL had nothing to do with stopping her. She was stopped by VBs, at which point the heavy ships caught up with her, and put her under...although--like USS POPE (DD-225)--the ship was going down already. But POPE was not stopped by gunfire either, or sunk by it. But it's a false assertion to claim that their gunnery was much worse than anyone else's without radar. Remember the Allied Striking Force under Doorman at Javazee shot just as poorly, if that... And EXETER, a great fighting ship, was stopped on 27 Feb by a single shell, and her career came to an end on 1 March as the result of a single shell. Off southern Borneo she was not nearly so badly battered as she had been by GRAF SPEE at River Plate. I do not understand the criticisms of MOGAMI. She seems to me to have been one of the most durable warships of her type & size ever constructed. At least in reality, and not the universe of alt-history. Last: it is a cardinal misunderstanding to say the Japanese did not favor outranging tactics. Their cruiser (& BB) doctrine called for just this, and the development of the Long Lance torpedo was another example of it as well. Their firing at Javazee, although protracted, was according to doctrine, as was their shooting against EDSALL. What their commanders were criticized for was adhering to this doctrine a little too obstinately.
Creeping Death1929		#18	[-]
Posts: 1038 (22-Jul-2008 06:15:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	E F Draaijers wrote: Something else is also quite important to observe, namely the poor IJN performance in gunnery at all but the closest ranges from their 8 inch gunned cruisers (and the 14 inch or bigger gun mounted battleships as well). IJN forces at close range were pretty good, especially at night, but against targets at longer range, they performed bad (IJN Nachi and Haguro only scored 5 shell hits in total during their Java Sea campagin against Doorman's ABDA taskforce, while Ashigara expended over 400 8 inch shells to sink the USS Pillsbury and the same vessel and Myoko needed over 600 shells to sink both HMS Encounter and USS Pope. IJN Tone, with IJN Kirishima and IJN Hiei needed over 700 large shells to overwhelm USS Edsall. Not very good a record, it seems.) Nachi and Haguro's hits against the Allied ships at Java sea: 6-7 Allied cruisers' hits against the Japanese heavies: 0 Ashigara's rounds fired against Pillsbury: 0 Atago and Takao's rounds fired against Pillsbury: 54 and 116 respectively. You're also omitting that the Japanese heavies were firing at Exeter as well, sinking her in the process. Kevin Denlay's dives on Exeter and Encounter showed that they had taken quite a few shell hits as well. Myoko and Ashigara fired 1171 shells, while Nachi fired 170 and Haguro fired 108. E F Draaijers wrote: German gunnery was good, especially at longer range, as is shown by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in sinking HMS Glorious at ranges between 22,000 and 18,500 yards, as well as Prinz Eugen with Bismarck, scoring a first hit on HMS Hood at some 18,000 yards. Although only Prinz Eugen at the time had a functional radarset, it was not used for targetting the guns, as such radar still did not excist those days. Prinz Eugen scored a hit with her second four gun salvo. (Bismarck lost its radar before battle due to shockdamage and both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau lacked the lates fitting in 1940 and possibly had no radar when engaging HMS Glorious.) You could use the same statistics for the Japanese. The Japanese scored five or six hits at ranges greater than 24,000 yards at the Java Sea and five hits at 18,000 to 22,000 yards at the Komandorskis.
Admiral Beez		#19	[-]
Posts: 4580 (22-Jul-2008 15:04:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	DrAdam H wrote: Scheer's bigger problem will be "what now?" Shes just finished a battle with a heavy cruiser and the nearest friendly port is on the other side of Africa. Also no doubt more ships (carriers and 14" 30kt battlecruisers) are on the way to follow up. That ocean just got a LOT bigger didn't it? For a night battle at <8,000 yards? I'm going with Mogami. His best plan might be to head straight north to Vichy-control Madagascar or Italian held Somalia/Ethiopia for refueling and field repairs. The re-supply of 11" ammunition will be impossible though, so a trip back to Germany is essential.
StevoJH		#20	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 299 (22-Jul-2008 15:42:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Admiral Beez wrote: DrAdam H wrote: Scheer's bigger problem will be "what now?" Shes just finished a battle with a heavy cruiser and the nearest friendly port is on the other side of Africa. Also no doubt more ships (carriers and 14" 30kt battlecruisers) are on the way to follow up. That ocean just got a LOT bigger didn't it? For a night battle at <8,000 yards? I'm going with Mogami. His best plan might be to head straight north to Vichy-control Madagascar or Italian held Somalia/Ethiopia for refueling and field repairs. The re-supply of 11" ammunition will be impossible though, so a trip back to Germany is essential. Same situation as historical in other words, ark royal and Force H were 24 hours away when they scuttled.

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Admiral Scheer (PBS) vs. Mogami CA

Admiral Scheer (PBS) vs. Mogami CA

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