http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/RafsNewTransportAircraftRevealed.htm
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Moskit |
A400M Rollout |
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Posts: 1015 (30-Jun-2008 19:19:32) |
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this so far.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/RafsNewTransportAircraftRevealed.htm |
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PMN1 |
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Posts: 3581 ( 8-Jul-2008 23:34:07) |
How does the A400 compare to what was being looked at for the earlier Future International Military Aircraft in terms of size and performance?
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bager1968 |
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Posts: 3038 ( 9-Jul-2008 01:15:21) |
According to Wikiwaki:
"The Airbus A400M is a four-engine turboprop military transport and tanker, designed by Airbus Military. It is the largest military aircraft designed and built in Western Europe. The project began as the Future International Military Airlifter (FIMA) group, set up in 1982 by Aerospatiale, British Aerospace, Lockheed, and MBB to develop a replacement for the C-130 Hercules and C-160 Transall. Varying requirements and the complications of international politics caused slow progress. In 1989 Lockheed left the grouping and went on to develop an upgraded Hercules, the C-130J. With the addition of Alenia and CASA the FIMA group became Euroflag. The partner nations, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom, Turkey, Belgium, and Luxembourg, signed an agreement in May 2003 to buy 212 aircraft. These nations decided to charge OCCAR with the management of the acquisition of the A400M. Following the withdrawal of Italy and revision of procurement totals the revised requirement was for 180 aircraft, with first flight in 2008 and first delivery in 2009. On 28 April 2005, South Africa joined the partnership programme with the state owned Denel Aerospace Systems receiving a contract for fuselage components." So I would say that since it IS the Future International Military Airlifter, it is exactly what it was planned to be. Here is a link to where you can get a paper on the progress of FIMA that was written in 1990. It should mention if there were any different size/configuration/performance versions being studied: http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADP006262 The Air Force Technology website only follows it back 15 years or so...: "The A400M (formerly known as the future large aircraft) is a military transporter designed to meet the requirements of the air forces of Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Turkey and the United Kingdom. A European staff target was drawn up in 1993, together with a memorandum of understanding signed by the governments of the seven nations. Italy subsequently withdrew from the programme. Airbus Military SL of Madrid, a subsidiary of Airbus Industrie, is responsible for management of the A400M programme." http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/fla/ |
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PMN1 |
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Posts: 3582 ( 9-Jul-2008 12:50:56) |
Given that Shorts proposed a jet version of the Belfast, how difficult would it be to turn the A400 into a turbofan powered aircraft?
Interest in AST.364 was shown by BAC and Hawker Siddeley, but it was Shorts who reacted most vigorously.
Having lost out on OR.351. The company immediately offered the Belfast fuselage/C.141 wing S.5/45 and pointed out to the Ministry that an almost identical
civil variant SC.5/41 had home and export sales potential. SC.5/43 had beaver tail rear loading in addition to a swing nose and all-up-weight of 420,000lb.The
powerplant was to be the high by-pass ration 25,000-lb thrust RB.178 engine originally known as the Super Conway. The
wing was aerodynamically similar to that of the C-141. All-up weight was to be 420,00lb and 123,000lb of freight could be carried across the North Atlantic at
an optimum cruising speed of 440kts. Two loading decks were incorporated in a 17ft 7" diameter fuselage and in a mixed cargo/passenger role the SC.5 could
carry 140 passengers on the upper deck and 70,000lb of cargo on the lower deck. Span was 163ft 3in, length 136fy 5in, and win area 483 sq feet. Sweepback on
the 25 percent chord line was 5 degrees. Maximum zero fuel weight was 297,000lb and empty weight 146,010lb. In civil form, with full reserves, 100,000lb
payload could be carried over 3,750 statute miles.
Last Edited By: PMN1
9-Jul-2008 15:30:09.
Edited 1 times.
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emc |
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Posts: 3923 ( 9-Jul-2008 18:16:36) |
Given that a perfectly acceptable turboprop design has been built, why would one want to turn it into a turbofan? To do it right, you'll need a new wing,
new empennage, and new ecs, and new (and very expensive!) flight tests.
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flyingdutchman1980 |
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Posts: 105 ( 9-Jul-2008 20:47:00) |
emc wrote: The A-400M AFAIK is meant as both a strategic (C-17) and a tactical transport (C-130). For the first a turbofan would perhaps be more economical, but for
the second most definitely the current turboprops are better.
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PMN1 |
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Posts: 3583 ( 9-Jul-2008 23:22:20) |
Given that a perfectly acceptable turboprop design has been built, why would one want to turn it into a turbofan? To do it
right, you'll need a new wing, new empennage, and new ecs, and new (and very expensive!) flight tests.
No reason, just wondered what kind of work would be involved. |
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PMN1 |
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Posts: 3584 (10-Jul-2008 10:56:33) |
The story from FlightGlobal
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/2004/2004-09%20-%202245.html about 30 single PDF pages |
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PMN1 |
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Posts: 3585 (10-Jul-2008 12:25:37) |
Does anyone know if the design can be easily stretched in the same way the C130 and C141 were if that was a requirement?
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emc |
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Posts: 3925 (10-Jul-2008 15:08:50) |
flyingdutchman1980 wrote: Actually, turboprops are more fuel-efficient; their operating costs may be greater in airline service because of the increased maintenance costs
associated with the engine gearbox and the propeller's governor and pitch-change mechanism. Turbofan aircraft tend to be faster, so they tend to have
somewhat better productivity. Airlines also have to worry about marketing, and turbofans are perceived as more "modern" than turboprops. It's
certainly easier to make sure their cabins are quiet.
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Desertfox.historypolitics... |
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Registered Member
Posts: 86 (10-Jul-2008 18:17:08) |
"Given that Shorts proposed a jet version of the Belfast, how difficult would it be to turn the A400 into a turbofan powered aircraft?"
Ask Dornier, they did it with the 328 and it looks like a fairly simple conversion. |
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emc |
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Posts: 3931 (10-Jul-2008 21:08:45) |
Desertfox wrote: I believe Embraer did the same thing. Turboprops are more fuel efficient, but some airlines have found that their increased maintenance costs overweigh the reduced fuel costs. Also, for commercial service especially, marketing considerations are critical, and if the passengers think turbofans are faster, safer, and generally sexier, the airlines will find that to be an advantage in marketing. The jet version of the Belfast seems to have included a swept wing and tail surfaces, so these were definitely new.
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BenRoethig |
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Posts: 1810 (11-Jul-2008 02:27:42) |
PMN1 wrote: Perhaps, but it already has around the same length to span ration as the C130-30. It could also, in theory be shorted. |
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taschoene |
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Posts: 4281 (11-Jul-2008 04:36:11) |
The FLA (pre-A400M) was shown with turbofans until surprisingly late in the development process, so it probably wouldn't be all that hard to change.
But it seems that it also wouldn't make that much of a difference in strategic performance. The A400M cruises at Mach 0.72, quite fast for an aircraft of this type. For comparison, the outwardly similar C-130 cruises around Mach .59, while the turbofan C-17 only cruises at Mach 0.76. Considering the ~20% improvement in fuel consumption from the props, the minor increase in speed that a turbofan would offer hardly seems worthwhile. |
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Monophonic |
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Posts: 21 (11-Jul-2008 08:46:35) |
If I did the math right, increasing speed by ~5% (Mach 0.72 to Mach 0.76) with fuel consumption (per hour, if it's per mile the math gets a bit
complicated) increase of ~25% (if props consume 4/5 of what fans do, fans consume 5/4 of what props do) would take ~15% off the range of the aircraft. For an
airlifter, range seems much more important than speed, making fans just not an option.
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PMN1 |
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Posts: 3589 (13-Jul-2008 16:08:55) |
From Flight International 01/07/08 � Rolls-Royce promotes turboprop solution for new civil airliners By Kieran Daly � Rolls-Royce is talking up the possibility of a new generation of turboprop-powered aircraft replacing a substantial proportion of today's narrowbody jets. The manufacturer believes high oil prices are likely to drive airframers to sacrifice cruise speed for economics. "The TP400 engine [for the Airbus A400M military transport] is a very efficient propulsion system," R-R director engineering and technology, Colin Smith, says. "There is a very sound argument to be made for the majority of the 150-seat market, which flies mostly for less than 1.5h [being turboprop-powered]...if somebody does want a high-efficiency turboprop then have we got one for you." R-R civil aerospace president Mark King adds: "More and more manufacturers are looking at whether the bottom half of this market would be better addressed with turboprops." The jet aircraft consigned large, 100-seat-plus turboprops such as the Lockheed Electra and Vickers Vanguard to the history books four decades ago. The largest turboprop airliners today seat no more than 80 passengers, although Bombardier is evaluating a stretched Q400 variant that could seat up to 100. King stresses that the engine-makers have yet to be asked by the airframers to satisfy a specific requirement: "All we know is that a lot of people who currently fly around in 150-seat aircraft will need transporting in the future. Is that going to be in a single-aisle or twin-aisle? There are plenty of persuasive arguments about what that will be. "What is the range of this thing? A thousand miles [1,600km] or 3,000 miles leads to fundamentally different machines." King stresses, however, that there remains great uncertainty about the timescale of when airframers will launch new programmes in the 150-seat class, and says the timing will in turn affect the technological solutions offered by engine-providers. He says: "There are so many different things that affect the timescale. Open rotor is 2018 turboprop we are in the middle of advanced turbofan is just the typical engine development timescale." Rolls-Royce will start running a new open-rotor engine test rig in the next couple of weeks, which it says will allow testing of units that "are not core size but are pretty big". King adds: "The kind of open rotors that we are looking at are still quieter than today's aircraft. They are just not as quiet as they would be if you were to design solely for noise." � |
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PK |
More A400M pics | ||
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Posts: 712 (16-Jul-2008 23:24:49) |
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