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Self supporting Aircraft Carrier wanted

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E F Draaijers

Self supporting Aircraft Carrier wanted

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Posts: 236

(26-Jun-2008 21:50:13)

In 1939 Germany is planning to create a large surfaceraider with its own aircover on it. The ship has to be qualified for the following perrimiters.:

- Range: 16,000 miles at most economical speed.
- Speed 30 knots or more.
- Capable of operating alone in hostile waters.
- Armored against both air and naval attack with deck armor against 1100lbs AP bombs and sidearmor against 12 inch caliber guns (London Naval Treaty suggestion).
- Torpedodefence against multiple hits 6 or more.
- LA guns up to 11 inch/54 calliber of Scharnhorst Class.
- Medium calliber 150 mm or less, either DP or LA.
- Heavy AA guns to be fitted at least 16 barrels, (may be same as medium caliber, if DP).
- Large number of medium and light AA guns to be mounted.
- Torpedobattery to be included.
- Aircraftgroup to be composed of some 24+ fighter and 9+ scout/divebomber type. Optionally torpedobomber can be included as well.
- Note the German docks can accomodate vessels up to 1000 feet in length and 150 feet wide, but draft is limmited to 40 feet maximum.
- This is a paper study, so money is not important on this design. Only existing weapons and aircraft of the time allowed.

Most likely sort of operation: War against trade of opponent (UK). Vessel equipped as flagship in conjunction with new M class cruiser and Spahkreuzer. May also be used with capital ships in squadronoperations. The design has to be able to fend of enemy cruisers and destroyers on its own with gunfire.

Dave Bender

Self supporting Aircraft Carrier

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Posts: 6664

(26-Jun-2008 22:30:57)

No such thing unless it includes an oil well and refinery for making gasoline.

E F Draaijers

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Posts: 237

(26-Jun-2008 23:04:26)

Basically I was looking for some sort of hybrid type of very large vessel design with a very large fuelcapacity and very economical engines (perhaps diesels?). The Deutschland class heavy cruiser also had a very long range of slightly less miles at economical speed and with the use of supporting oilers, this was even more. In 1939 the use of navalsupport vessels was still usefull for raiders, as German Naval tactics prooved before 1942. So a Selfsupporting large unit is not that strange in German thinking of the day. (Even Bismarck actually acted as such a raider, untill cornered prematurely by the Royal Navy.)

Dave Bender

Even Bismarck actually acted as such a raider

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Posts: 6665

(26-Jun-2008 23:40:12)

KM Bismarck cost 197 million marks and sank zero tons of enemy merchant shipping. A total failure at commerce interdiction. If commerce interdiction is the goal then 1939 Germany should look at what worked during WWI.

U 35

Type

U 31

Shipyard

Germaniawerft, Kiel (Werk 195)

Ordered

29 Mar, 1912

Laid down

20 Dec, 1912

Launched

18 Apr, 1914

Commissioned

3 Nov, 1914

Commanders

3 Nov, 1914 - 12 Nov, 1915	Waldemar Kophamel
13 Nov, 1915 - 16 Mar, 1918	Kptlt. Lothar von Arnauld de la Perière
17 Mar, 1918 - 13 Aug, 1918	Ernst von Voigt
14 Oct, 1918 - 11 Nov, 1918	Heino von Heimburg

Career

17 patrols

start date unknown - 1 Aug, 1915 II Flotilla
23 Aug, 1915 - 11 Nov, 1918 Pola Flotilla

Successes

224 ships sunk for a total of 546.929 tons.
7 ships damaged for a total of 32.040 tons.
1 ship sunk for a total of 1.862 tons.
3 ships sunk for a total of 2.798 tons.
1 warship damaged for a total of 450 tons.

Fate

26 Nov, 1918 - Surrendered. Broken up at Blyth in 1919-20.

StevoJH

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Posts: 177

(27-Jun-2008 14:35:24)

Assuming they did go the surface ship route though. :P

Finish the Graf Zepplin, build a few fast tankers, send it out with the pocket battleships and possibly Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Aircraft to torpedo any battleships in the escorts before the surface combatants move in to massacre the escort. Tankers get refilled from tankers in the convoy, with the crews of the ships in the convoy placed aboard the slowest ship in the convoy with the radio removed and then the rest of the ships being either scuttled or sailed to a neutral port for sale. :P

Dave Bender

Assuming they did go the surface ship route though

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Posts: 6671

(27-Jun-2008 18:30:23)

Then you look at successful surface ship commerce raiders during WWI.

Emden before the war. She sank eighteen merchantman, converted another to an armed merchant cruiser and captured and used three colliers. She had also raided two allied ports and sank a cruiser and a destroyer as well as causing major disruption to shipping and tying down a large number of enemy warships. Throughout the voyage she had maintained an excellent reputation for "gentlemanly" behaviour, not a single person from the merchant ships she sank was killed, prisoners were well treated and released at the earliest opportunity, enemy wounded were treated as best they could and neutral ships were treated as such.

The Karlsruhe was used for foreign services since 1914. At the outbreak of the war, the ship was stationed in the Caribbean Sea and was used as a merchant raider. In the following months, she sunk 17 merchant ships with a total of 77834 ts.

delcyros

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Posts: 1799

(27-Jun-2008 19:08:34)

I tend to think that such a design would be a to radical departure from design environment.

A) there was no carrier plane option aviable
B) there was no carrier doctrine in place

However, what they had in place were superior float planes (Do-22, a bit large but good speed / payload / range combination), trained mothership crews and pilots. You could try to build a special raider with float planes on the base of a Karlsruhe class CL with modifications such as suggested by Harold on another board:
-removal of the fwd. triple turret and side rotating TT
-smaller bridge construction
-all Diesel propulsion
-installation of cranes and hangars
-installation for two fwd. launch catapults
-slightly larger to compensate for CL structural weaknesses

As a tradeeffect of the large freeboard fwd., this raider will have excellent seakeeping abilities.

(drawing by Harold&)

Schkeuditz, german float plane carrier laid down 1935

Displacement:
7.855 t light; 8.115 t standard; 9.032 t normal; 9.765 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(643,86 ft / 627,62 ft) x 60,20 ft x (16,73 / 17,71 ft)
(196,25 m / 191,30 m) x 18,35 m x (5,10 / 5,40 m)

Armament:
6 - 5,91" / 150 mm 60,0 cal guns - 112,79lbs / 51,16kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 raised mount aft
10 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 76,0 cal guns - 23,56lbs / 10,69kg shells, 250 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
2 raised mounts
1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck forward
1 double raised mount
16 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 115,0 cal guns - 0,29lbs / 0,13kg shells, 500 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
4 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 917 lbs / 416 kg
Main Torpedoes
8 - 21,0" / 533 mm, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m torpedoes - 1,532 t each, 12,258 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1,57" / 40 mm 370,73 ft / 113,00 m 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 91% of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3,15" / 80 mm 1,57" / 40 mm 2,36" / 60 mm
2nd: 0,79" / 20 mm 0,39" / 10 mm -

- Box over machinery & magazines:
1,18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 0,00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 1,18" / 30 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3,15" / 80 mm, Aft 1,18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 68.000 shp / 50.728 Kw = 32,00 kts
Range 12.000nm at 12,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1.651 tons

Complement:
463 - 602

Cost:
£3,318 million / $13,272 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 296 tons, 3,3%
- Guns: 271 tons, 3,0%
- Weapons: 25 tons, 0,3%
Armour: 1.042 tons, 11,5%
- Belts: 358 tons, 4,0%
- Armament: 96 tons, 1,1%
- Armour Deck: 547 tons, 6,1%
- Conning Towers: 40 tons, 0,4%
Machinery: 1.932 tons, 21,4%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.886 tons, 43,0%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.177 tons, 13,0%
Miscellaneous weights: 700 tons, 7,8%
- Hull above water: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 500 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons

Either 4 + 1 Do-22 or 6 +1 Ar-floatplanes.

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16.838 lbs / 7.638 Kg = 163,5 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 1,7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 2,8 ft / 0,9 m
Roll period: 15,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,36
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,45

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle, rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,500 / 0,511
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28,50 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 8,53 ft / 2,60 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 10,00%, 28,77 ft / 8,77 m, 24,93 ft / 7,60 m
- Forward deck: 35,00%, 35,04 ft / 10,68 m, 35,04 ft / 10,68 m
- Aft deck: 40,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 14,44 ft / 4,40 m
- Average freeboard: 22,23 ft / 6,77 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82,0%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 246,0%
Waterplane Area: 26.180 Square feet or 2.432 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 470 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,94
- Longitudinal: 1,59
- Overall: 1,00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Last Edited By: delcyros 27-Jun-2008 19:13:38. Edited 1 times.

Dave Bender

KM Dresden, Germany Commerce Raider laid down 1939

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Posts: 6672

(27-Jun-2008 19:20:53)

KM Dresden, Germany Commerce Raider laid down 1939

Displacement:
3,441 t light; 3,584 t standard; 5,190 t normal; 6,453 t full load
Loading submergence 430 tons/feet

Dimensions:
499.34 ft x 48.56 ft x 15.29 ft (normal load)
152.20 m x 14.80 m x 4.66 m

Armament:
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (2 Main turrets x 2 guns)
2 - 3.46" / 88 mm guns
8 - 1.46" / 37 mm AA guns
16 - 0.79" / 20 mm guns
Weight of broadside 470 lbs / 213 kg
10 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Armor belt 18mm
Main turrets 18mm
Armour deck 10 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 46,195 shp / 34,461 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 20,000nm at 15.00 kts

Complement:
305 - 397

Cost:
£2.006 million / $8.023 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 59 tons, 1.1 %
Armour: 741 tons, 14.3 %
Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %, Armament: 632 tons, 12.2 %, Armour Deck: 110 tons, 2.1 %
Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,250 tons, 24.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,141 tons, 22.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,749 tons, 33.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 4.8 %
Metacentric height 2.2

Remarks:
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation & workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.16
Shellfire needed to sink: 3,787 lbs / 1,718 Kg = 36.8 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 1.1
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 70 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0.27
Relative quality as seaboat: 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.490
Sharpness coefficient: 0.33
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 8.82
'Natural speed' for length: 22.35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim: 56
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 92.6 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 119.1 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 131 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.49
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs / square foot or 217 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 0.66
(for 17.72 ft / 5.40 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 4.44 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 0.51

A purpose built 1939 German commerce raider constructed on the historical Spahkreuzer 1938 hull. This ship incorporates the hard-earned lessons from successful WWI era surface commerce raiders.
- High speed to evade enemy cruisers. (Actual speed is 32 to 33 kts)
- Outstanding endurance so you don't need to worry about running out of fuel.
- A reliable diesel-electric propulsion system.
- 15cm main guns in 2 twin turrets to quickly sink merchant vessels by gunfire. Also more then a match for enemy DDs.
- Torpedoes for tough to sink ships or in case you surprise a convoy at close range.
- Mines may be carried ILO torpedoes. Sometimes this is desirable.
- 2 aircraft on the stern to aid in searching for victims. Initially seaplanes. Replaced with FI-282 helicopters in 1942.
- Specialized radio direction finding equipment to aid in locating victims.
- Radar (initially Seetakt) to aid in locating victims.

Perhaps most important of all, this ship is inexpensive with a price of about 25 million marks. You can purchase 3 for the price of an ineffective CA Hipper class commerce raider. 7 for the price of an ineffective Bismarck class commerce raider.

Last Edited By: Dave Bender 27-Jun-2008 19:24:15. Edited 1 times.

tassilo27

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Posts: 124

(27-Jun-2008 19:26:47)

You're showing 18" armor on the main turrets. Is that to help sim the ship's weights properly or is that an error?

Dave Bender

Showing 18" armor on the main turrets

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Posts: 6675

(27-Jun-2008 20:40:58)

My copy of SpringSharp is not being all that it can be. I have 18mm of armor entered but the report is showing 18". I have fudged in the correct armor thickness. Please ignore the weight section as I'm sure that even an 18mm armor belt weighs more then zero tons.

E F Draaijers

Project A III design

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Registered Member

Posts: 239

(28-Jun-2008 22:49:55)

Grossflugzeugkreuzer A III (design 14.04.1942)

Contruction Data

Laid down:	Design 14.04.1942
Launched:
Commissioned:
Fate:
Costs:

Technical Data

Size:	70000 t
Length:	280,0 m
Beam:
Draft:
Armament:	6 x 28 cm; 16 x 15 cm; 16 x 10,5 cm; 12 x 3,7 cm; 6 x 53,3 cm torpedo tubes; 32 Aircraft
Performance:	280000 shp, 34 kn, Range 20000 sm at 19 kn

Dave Bender

Size: 70,000 t

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Posts: 6691

(29-Jun-2008 22:45:18)

If WWII Germany is going to put serious resources into development of aircraft carriers then they will also put some resources behind development of CV aircraft. Your likely air wing?

Me-155 Fighter.
This would be ILO the make shift Me-109T. Although it shares components with the Me-109, the Me-155 was purpose built for operation from CVs. It would evolve along with the Me-109 series, keeping performance up to date. It is likely to be the best CV fighter in service by any nation prior to the F4U Corsair being placed on CVs in 1944.

Fi-167 Torpedo Bomber.
Germany's version of the Fairey Swordfish. Likely to be withdrawn from service in 1941 when the torpedo capable Ju-87E enters service. It is just too vulnerable to both enemy aircraft and AA fire.

Ju-87C = CV variant of Ju-87B dive bomber.
Ju-87E = CV variant of Ju-87D dive bomber.
Unlike the Me-109 fighter, the Ju-87 dive bomber worked just fine operating from a CV flight deck after adding a tail hook. Heavy payload and good bombing accuracy allows it to hit naval targets. The Ju-87D could carry a torpedo so I assume that the Ju--87E will be capable of both dive bombing and torpedo bombing. This gives you a CV strike aircraft with great flexibility.

Fi-282 Helicopter.
An observation and light utility helicopter. The KM historically used these from 1942 onward. Might as well put a couple on the CV flight deck.

The superb medium and low altitude performance of the Fw-190A makes it an obvious choice as a CV aircraft. As far as I am aware there was not a CV version historically. However that may change in this scenerio. It it does happen the CV version would be purpose built, just as the Me-155 was purpose built.

E F Draaijers

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Registered Member

Posts: 242

(30-Jun-2008 10:34:03)

I agree with these figures, since these aircraft were at least on the designersboards and were looking prommising, were it not for Göring, confiscating every flying object for the Luftwaffe, rather than a seperate Naval Airforce. If more intelligent politicians had ruled, these designs would certainly have made it far more difficult for the Allies to beat Germany at sea, even if no aircraftcarrier was eventually finished. (Land based specialized anti shipping aircraft would prevent coastal operations near enemy coastlines for the Allies, if these were present in some numbers. A more or less simmilar sort of operations like the ones in the Pacific would be more likely then.)

By the way, the FW-190 type was an excelent strikefighter and certainly addaptable for carrieroperations, if chosen for such service, thanks to its wide track, opposed to the narrow one on the Messerschmitt, making it far more stable on a moviong and hogging flightdeck. Especially the radial engine of BMW design mounted FW-190-A type for low and medium hights and the inline engine mounted FW-190-D9 for medium high altitudes, were among the best combat aircraft ever designed, often better than corresponding Messerschmitts of the Me-109 series. A serious bonus for the attack variant of the FW-190 is its large payload, very simmilar to the USN F6F and F4U fighters.

Dave Bender

FW-190 type was an excelent strikefighter

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Posts: 6694

(30-Jun-2008 13:00:54)

The Fw-190 has the same problem as the Me-109. The wing design is not suitable for CV operations. The purpose built Me-155 had a wing entirely different from the Me-109 series. A CV version of the Fw-190 would also need a different wing. This could have been done if naval funding was available. The money would come from the naval budget. So blame Admiral Raeder, not Goering.

Personally I think that a variant of the Fw-190A could have made up the entire CV air wing. It can drop bombs and torpedoes in addition to being a superb fighter.

delcyros

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Posts: 1806

(30-Jun-2008 14:56:46)

There are serious problems with the Fw-190 in the carrier role:
A) low acceleration
B) high torque
C) high take off / landing speed with corresponding long runs
D) tricky low speed handling (flipover stalls)

There were prototypes (Fw-190V5g and -V5k) of the Fw-190A program experimenting with large and small wings, the small wing actually was choosen for serial Fw-190A´s. Since the wing does not have any high lift devices these deficiancies are difficult to overcome.

I would add the Ar-195 to the list. This multi - purpose combat plane is comparable to the Fi-167 and can carry bomb and torpedoloads. It is rugged and aviable sooner. Unlike the Fi-167 with it´s 4.80m height, the Ar-195 is very compact with a height of only 3.60m and much more can be stowed into a carrier.

Dave Bender

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Posts: 6697

(30-Jun-2008 15:12:09)

C) high take off / landing speed with corresponding long runs
D) tricky low speed handling (flipover stalls)

The new Fw-190A wing will fix this. I assume these are also the primary reasons that the Me-155 received a different wing then the Me-109.

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