Kuznetsov vs. de Gaulle

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Admiral Beez	Kuznetsov vs. de Gaulle	Lead	[-]
Posts: 4503 (28-Apr-2008 23:58:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	How would the Kuznetsov and a CBG of four cans fare in battle against Charles de Gaulle and four French cans? De Gualle brings a strong, AWACs supported airgroup of 40 aircraft, including Rafale, Super Étendard and E-2C Hawkeye. Kuznetsov also fields 40 aircraft, including Su-33s, Su-25UTG and Kamov Ka-27 AEW helicopters. This engagement of course assumes that Kuznetsov is fully operational and worked-up, and that de Gaulle isn't in refit nor broken down. Last Edited By: Admiral Beez 29-Apr-2008 00:03:07. Edited 2 times.
jim3au		#1	[-]
Posts: 1469 (29-Apr-2008 01:02:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Who is going to find whom first? Failing really bad luck, the Russians will find the French when the French want to be found. That is a serious disadvantage from which the Russians are unlikely to be able to recover. The Charles de Gaule battle group will seriously test the anti-missile capability of the Kuznetsov and her escorts.
seasick		#2	[-]
Posts: 4619 (29-Apr-2008 03:43:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Kuznetsov will be toasted by the French. Kamov Ka-27 AEW helicopters are very inferior to a E-2C detechment.
Admiral Beez		#3	[-]
Posts: 4504 (29-Apr-2008 05:08:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Some debate on this topic at http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/9-2279.aspx
Admiral Beez		#4	[-]
Posts: 4506 (29-Apr-2008 05:52:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The SU-33 is armed with the airborne version of the SS-N-22 Sunburn (H-41) anti-ship missile. Per the write-up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-41 this missile looks like quite a beast, with a very high top speed. (Mach 2.5, range 120 nm) vs. the Etendard's Exocet. If I were the Russians, I'd leave the Frogfoot at home and embark 37 x SU-33 and three Ka-27 AEW. Assuming (yes, big if) that the Russians know where the French are, my strike against de Gaulle would consist of 25 SU-33, each armed with two H-41, with another six SU-33 for escort, leaving six SU-33 for fleet defense/CAP. Since the current Rafale M (F1) are not Exocet-capable, de Gaulle must depend on its Super Etendards for anti-ship strikes, resulting in a split airwing, and fewer Rafales available to stop the Russian airstrike or to escort any French strike against Kuznetsov. If however, sufficient multirole Rafale F2s are available to replace the Super Etendards, then we have a stronger counter to the Soviet strike, and a strong force to attack Kuznetsov. Does anyone know when the Super Etendards are expected to be retired from de Gaulle's airwing?
seasick	Russian get French Fried	#5	[-]
Posts: 4620 (29-Apr-2008 06:17:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	First no matter what the E-2C is going to see the Russians comming to attack the CdG long before the Russians see the CdG. I am not certain about the radar on the Rafale M but if it is an AESA type there is a good chance that the Su-33 will have Mica missiles charging in on them before they even detect the French. Finally the French should do a Spruance and make the Russians come to them because closer to the French fleet the French will hold all the cards so to speak, The French air defenses will easily deal with the few H-41 that get fired. The Russian force will then have to turn back because of soft-kill via depleated carrier air wing, end of story.
Zen9		#6	[-]
Posts: 3482 (29-Apr-2008 13:54:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Currently a PESA type, but there is a program to upgrade it to AESA. Sunburn is BIG and heavy, it would be interesting to know how well the Su-33 operates from Kuznetsov with that hanging from a pylon, when it uses just a ski-ramp for take off. I suspect the rearmost/longest runup to the ski-ramp which means only one launch of a strike machine at a time, and a linear launch sequence for a number of them. So its a slower process assembling a number of Sunburn equiped Su-33's to perform that attack. And you certainly want more than one missile and more than one plane to do that attack or it will fail.
Obi Wan Russell		#7	[-]
Posts: 189 (29-Apr-2008 15:13:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	At the moment the SEMs are due to be phased out as more Rafales become available, so at current rates of Rafale production they will stil be around for the next ten years or so.
Admiral Beez		#8	[-]
Posts: 4507 (29-Apr-2008 15:45:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Of course there is also the fact that since Vietnam, IIRC Russian-made aircraft have never bested NATO-made aircraft in combat.
drunknsubmrnr		#9	[-]
Posts: 1318 (29-Apr-2008 16:01:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Beez, You've completely mistaken the Russian doctrine for the Kuznetzov. i) It's ASuW punch is not the aircraft, it's the 12 P-700 missiles. ii) There are only 12 Su-33's carried. Their purpose is CAP, not strike. iii) There are only a few Su-25's carried, and they're trainers not bombers. iv) Most of the air wing is Ka-27 ASW helos. In general, the Kuznetzow is a super-Kiev, not a mini-Nimitz. Neither CVBG is able to effectively penetrate the others. You might see a severely depleted Russian air wing vs a somewhat depleted French air wing, but that's about it. Kevin Normal human beings don't get dolphins.
Admiral Beez		#10	[-]
Posts: 4508 (29-Apr-2008 17:34:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hmm...good points. How do the Su-33 and Rafale compare against each other in a one-on-one or six-on-six dogfight, without ship/ground radar or AWACS support? The Su-33 is a massive bird compared to the Rafale.

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Kuznetsov vs. de Gaulle

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