Where would Avro Arrow have taken Canada?

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Admiral Beez	Where would Avro Arrow have taken Canada?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 4340 ( 4-Feb-2008 19:08:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If the Avro Arrow hadn't been cancelled, where would the Arrow have taken Canada in the world of the military aircraft industry? In the Arrow itself, Canada essentially has an equivalent to the other high speed interceptors of the 1960s, such as the F-106 Delta Dart, English-Electric Lightning and Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25. However, once the threat of Soviet bombers over NORAD territory was replaced by ICBMs, IMO, the Arrow itself, after a few years in front line service would have been rendered obsolete. By the late 1960s and early 1970s, it was multi-role aircraft, such as the F-4 Phantom that were serving the world's airforces, which the Arrow design would not be appropriate for. So, what does Canada make after the Arrow is rendered obsolete in the early 1970s? We've got the people and the expertise, but need a product, and customers. More importantly, what happens to Avro Canada, fully owned by the UK's Hawker Siddeley Group, especially if they are profitable and successful? Would they be today a division of BAE Systems, with the Arrow and BAC TSR-2 teams working together (when the Arrow was cancelled, British Aerospace bought out Hawker Siddeley), or would the successors of the Hawker Siddeley Group have sold off Avro Canada to Boeing, or perhaps Canadair or later Bombardier? If it's nationalized, I imagine Trudeau will be very pleased to sell it off. Last Edited By: Admiral Beez 4-Feb-2008 19:15:57. Edited 1 time.
BenRoethig		#1	[-]
Posts: 1688 ( 4-Feb-2008 19:26:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Considering how fast the 100 series fighters were phased out of frontline USAF once vietnam came about, I think its best for the arrow that she was stillborn. Better to be known as a then good idea that never got off the ground that the operational failure the plane would have been.
Admiral Beez		#2	[-]
Posts: 4341 ( 4-Feb-2008 20:23:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	BenRoethig wrote: Considering how fast the 100 series fighters were phased out of frontline USAF once vietnam came about, I think its best for the arrow that she was stillborn.. The F-101 and especially the F-104 did well in front line service, though mostly with other air arms, though both deployed to Vietnam with the USAF (albeit the recon variant RF-101). It wasn't until the early 1980s that the F-15A started replacing the F-106 in USAF front-line home defense roles, passing their Darts to the ANG, who then used them for another half decade or so. As for Canada's future after success with the Arrow, I'd like to think that we'd stay with the Panavia Aircraft group (Canada was involved in the late 1960s), with Canadian design-work contributing to the Panavia Tornado, including using Orenda's background with the Arrow's Orenda Iroquois. I imagine though, with our limited political will and subsequent economic means, that we'd want a more multi-role platform, along the lines of a European F-18, with both ground attack and interception capabilities in one aircraft, as opposed to the IDS and ADV variants. Last Edited By: Admiral Beez 4-Feb-2008 20:33:03. Edited 3 times.
dunmunro1		#3	[-]
Posts: 1391 ( 4-Feb-2008 23:25:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The real tragedy in the CF100/Arrow story, is that Canada had a leg up in the commercial jetliner game, but then lost that when the resources were devoted to military fighters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Jetliner Trying to defend against, what will become an all out nuke attack with interceptors is kinda pointless, and that was the rationale for the CF100 and Arrow.
Zen9		#4	[-]
Posts: 3346 ( 5-Feb-2008 00:37:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It all depends really. Say for instance it exports well, then theres not just funds available from that but from the support costs through the years for it. UK could have gone down this route of buying the Arrow post '57, under the right circumstances. India and Australia strike me as potential buyers, which raises some interesting possiblities.
Admiral Beez		#5	[-]
Posts: 4342 ( 5-Feb-2008 01:02:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	dunmunro1 wrote: The real tragedy in the CF100/Arrow story, is that Canada had a leg up in the commercial jetliner game, but then lost that when the resources were devoted to military fighters:. Canada does have a leg up in the commercial jet liner game. Over 1,200 Bombardier CRJs have been built, with most still serving globally. Alongside these civilian jets, we've also license produced the Canadair CF-5 and Canadair CF-104. Now, these are regional jets, not transatlantic birds (even though the CRJ-700-Series 705 has sufficient max range at 2,344 miles), but the Avro Jetliner's range of 1,250 miles (2000 km) is not sufficient, as Cape Speer, Newfoundland to Ireland is 1,890 miles, and you don't get any closer than that between North America and Europe. The DH Comet 4's range was 3,225 mi, so presumably, the Jetliner would have had an extended range version. Had the Avro Jetliner gone into production in the mid-1950s, any successor to the Jetliner in the late 1950s or early 1960s would have competed directly with the parent company's efforts to launch the Hawker Siddeley Trident. Last Edited By: Admiral Beez 5-Feb-2008 01:10:21. Edited 3 times.
dunmunro1		#6	[-]
Posts: 1393 ( 5-Feb-2008 02:22:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That's true, but we had a chance to become dominant in the short and medium haul routes, in the early 1950s, and of course, when the Comet's faults were revealed the Jetliner, would have been well placed to pick up even more business.
Admiral Beez		#7	[-]
Posts: 4343 ( 5-Feb-2008 03:22:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	When you look at the Jetliner is really doesn't look very innovative. They've basically taken a conventional pressurized prop-airliner hull and stuck four British jet-engines where the prop engines would normally go. The wiki page provided above suggests the Avro Tudor as possible inspiration.
dunmunro1		#8	[-]
Posts: 1394 ( 5-Feb-2008 03:52:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That's debatable. A short haul airliner needs good lift, and low landing speeds, to get in and out of smaller fields, so a high lift, straight wing, makes sense, especially given the low thrust engines available at the time. Today they just use more powerful engines to get the required STOL characteristics.
seasick		#9	[-]
Posts: 4374 ( 5-Feb-2008 05:50:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The F-101 and especially the F-104 did well in front line service, though mostly with other air arms, though both deployed to Vietnam with the USAF (albeit the recon variant RF-101). It wasn't until the early 1980s that the F-15A started replacing the F-106 in USAF front-line home defense roles, passing their Darts to the ANG, who then used them for another half decade or so. In Houston the ANG used F-101 until 1985. Then switched to F-4D. In 1994 they switched to F-16.
Red Admiral		#10	[-]
Posts: 1808 ( 5-Feb-2008 21:36:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Where would Avro Arrow have taken Canada? Into bankruptcy? The program was going to cost a massive amount to perfect. The result would be a machine capable of high speed interception against high flying Soviet bombers, which were then quickly replaced by ICBMs. The aircraft might have good technical performance and would give Avro Canada a lot of beneficial experience, but the plane itself is doomed as a weapon system from being optimised for one task. A UK purchase is out, as the requirement was surpassed, and then cancelled. I can't really see the aircraft being useful for Australia or India against their potential enemies.

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Where would Avro Arrow have taken Canada?

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