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Navaleye |
Limitations of guns against manoeuvring air targets |
Lead | |
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Posts: 1037 ( 5-Jan-2008 16:53:33) |
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Sunk at Narvik |
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Posts: 2151 ( 5-Jan-2008 17:10:44) |
"As a result, should the target alter its direction during
an engagement, the target will no longer pass through the projectiles flight path" Hmmm.. must of escaped their notice that the thing about gun barrels is that its far easier to move them to align with the targets new position than it is to move a high speed missile in mid air. You also get more than one shot! |
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Moskit |
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Posts: 946 ( 5-Jan-2008 18:13:30) |
Er, yes, I'm sure they did forget that rather fundamental fact - bloody scientists, I bet they just looked at a photograph of gun and didn't realise it
moved at all!
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emc |
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Posts: 3382 ( 5-Jan-2008 18:52:29) |
They probably noticed the 0.1% probability of a hit for the projectile from a 20mm Phalanx vs the 80% hit probability for a missile, too.
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perfectgeneral |
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Posts: 298 ( 6-Jan-2008 04:22:15) |
emc wrote: Fire off a thousand rounds and 0.1% looks pretty good odds. Cheaper than a missile, not that you have to choose.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Want10Destroyers/
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/4Subs88Months/
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emc |
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Posts: 3385 ( 6-Jan-2008 06:39:44) |
Well, there is that ;-). On the other hand, the fact that one may have to shoot quite a lot of shells at a target to hit (and destroy) it may negate the fact
that a lot more 20mm rounds (say) can be carried than (say) ESSM's. A friend (who served on, and later commanded, USN frigates and destroyers) once told
me that a Phalanx mount could engage something like three targets before a rather time-consuming manual reload. That 4th target could more than wipe out the
savings.
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A G Williams |
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Posts: 1629 ( 6-Jan-2008 12:13:47) |
A thorough report, but it's nothing new. Clearly, a gun can only fire at the predicted position of the target, and if by the time the projectile has
arrived, the target has changed its course, then the gun will miss.
The effect this has on the effective range of a gun system obviously depends on the extent to which the target manoeuvres. This report assumes 5G, which is fairly violent. I find it hard to imagine that any missile or aircraft would be manoevring like that when trying to line up to hit a target - in the final approach stage, they mostly come straight in and thereby make much easier targets for gun systems. The best compromise IMO is the Russian approach of combining SAMs and guns on one mounting. Then you can use whatever suits the circumstances. Tony Williams Homepage: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk |
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s7seas |
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Posts: 522 ( 6-Jan-2008 14:36:26) |
Modern fire control systems are able to measure the target and fired projectile at the same time and do have a closed loop correction mechanism.
Only weaving targets are able to escape. And some new developments: To improve gunfire at a price much lower than missiles, Oto Melara works on Davide, that has an RF uplink to the steerable projectile: Davide for DART ammunition DAVIDE System represents the evolution of the 76/62 Gun for employment as an inner layer antimissile defence system. It provides the gun with the capability to defeat supersonic or subsonic missiles, seaskimming or diving. It has been conceived as an add-on equipment, to allow retrofitting on the in-service 76/62 Super Rapid or Compact Gun Mounts. DAVIDE System provides an RF guidance link to the projectiles in flight. DART (Driven Ammunition Reduced Time of flight) is the smart ammunition fired and guided by the DAVIDE System. A sub-calibre guided projectile with canard control and with high terminal manoeuvrability. Guidance system characteristics:
Projectile main characteristics:
Fuze main characteristics:
System performance:
The ART is a narrow projectile (42mm diameter) shaped like a rocket with tailfins and, at 3.4 kilograms, is lighter than a conventional 76mm shell. The tungsten-iron-core ART is encased in a 76mm shell, centered by a round collar, called a sabot. When the round is fired, gasses build up behind the sabot to hurl the projectile out of the gun barrel. The sabot falls off as the projectile leaves the barrel. The projectile, lighter and more aerodynamic than a conventional shell, heads toward the target at 1.5 times the speed of a conventional round. Because of its speed, the ART is less affected by wind and target motion and therefore far more accurate than a conventional round. It is so accurate, company officials said, that it is effective as a "non-lethal" weapon. I.m.h.o. this brings in new capabilities for a layered defence. Have a nice trip 7seas |
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radar |
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Posts: 8 ( 6-Jan-2008 16:46:57) |
@a.g. williams: do you know how fast the russian kasthan can train and elevate? from my understanding (and from the videos i've seen so far) the system is
rather slow compared to either short range missile launchers like the mk49 ram launcher or to gun systems like the goalkeeper. this might be caused by the
higher weight of the moving turret.
the integration of such a sam/gun combo is also more complicated because of the size and the weight. relating to dart i've heard some rumors that there will be a 76mm mount with a dual feed mechanism. in my point of view this would be very preferable in combination with dart. does anybody know some more about this "dual feed" system like configuration (two seperate revolving magazins or something different?), ammunition capacity, weight, ... and if it's right now ready for use or if it's only in development. put from my point of view dart is only interesting for the italian navy which has already fielded a lot of 76mm mounts in a ciws role and of course to support the national industrie. i don't think that a lot of other nations will introduce the 76mm as a ciws or use dart on mounts which are in service right now. they have to invest a lot of money to get something which they have already have with systems like ram, goalkeeper, .... does anybody know if the french navy is interested or has already ordered dart for their horizon frigates? as far as i know sadral was planed for this but right now i do not have seen a photo from the forbin with sadral. |
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Colin Mc |
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Posts: 582 ( 7-Jan-2008 13:44:05) |
Have the limitations of gunfire influenced the announcement that the Phalanx was going to be the standard fit for the RN as opposed to Goal Keeper? If 500
metres is the norm for reliable hits not much point in buying something with greater range. Makes you think CAAM is the answer for the RN.
It's curious that the Bofors 57mm was not examined in the study (unless it was and I missed it). Given that it is becoming the USN weapon of choice in the future for CIWS and Australia is very much a client of the US for naval equipment it's a bit strange - perhaps you can't say that the system you will inevitably buy at great expense is really no better than the competion because of the limitations that afflict all gun systems. |
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Peter Parkinson |
Still a place for medium ranged AA guns | ||
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Posts: 1756 ( 7-Jan-2008 14:44:54) |
A typical figure is about six secs for time of flight for a medium range AA gun and equates to around six to eight thousand yard range. Although the gun has
over say twenty thousand yard range in AA it would not be used as a lot can happen after and up to six secs of flight for shells. High speed attacking aircraft
and missiles suffer from the physics of inertia and cannot weave and fly about as a WW2 fighter attacking at two hundred knots despite what the salesmen claim.
With the increases of range in airborne missiles the trick is to detect the aircrafts radar in first sector search then lock on and then notice a slight change in frequency as the aircrafts missiles sector search and lock on while still on the aircraft. You then start jamming whatever missiles have been fired at you until within range of your missile and gun systems. Missiles fired from aircraft where they fly to a predetermined point and then switch on their radar again and sector search are no where near as good as a missile that is locked on from an aircraft. Once a missile has locked on you are literally secs away from it hitting you. Infrared and visual homers missiles come under close range targets and can be engaged with say seawolf, phalanx, goalkeeper systems. Though only seawolf has a reasonable range and the others you are engaging the target when very close and should be only looked upon as last ditch weapons. Warship missile systems both long and short range are extremely expensive and take up large amounts of space. There is still a place for a medium range AA gun firing first chaff shells and then vt fuzed shells. Vt fuzed shells against a supersonic target used used to get in the region of 80 per cent target destroyed, but the ship was well away from land so no clutter and generally good weather conditions and the systems were set up correctly. |
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