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USS Clarence E Walsh |
The Utility of Torpedo Boats |
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Registered Member
Posts: 14 (20-Oct-2007 02:07:30) |
I've always liked the concept of torpedo boats as a cheap way to take out expensive ships, but I haven't done enough research to know truly how
effective they were. Can anyone tell me how effective the idea in general was and maybe provide some examples? This is a question I have been wondering about
for some time.
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taschoene |
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Posts: 4094 (27-Oct-2007 00:34:45) |
Ultimately, torpedo boats proved pretty much ineffectual against capital ships. My impression is that US PTs and their British counterparts fairly rapidly
evolved from torpedo to gunboat configurations and were used to beat up on small-craft coastal shipping far more than for attacks on fleet units.
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Dave Bender |
Beat up on small-craft coastal shipping | ||
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Posts: 5394 (27-Oct-2007 17:18:32) |
This is what small torpedo boats are designed to do, and they work well for that purpose. They can operate in shallow coastal waters that the larger combatants
cannot reach.
Using coastal torpedo boats to attack large warships is like using a rock to pound in a nail. Not the best tool for the purpose, but it might occasionally work. |
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taschoene |
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Posts: 4095 (29-Oct-2007 12:10:08) |
Dave Bender wrote: Depends on who you ask. The Jeune Ecole thought otherwise... Specific to the US PTs, the heavy torpedo armament and nearly non-existent gun power of the original designs certainly suggests to me that they were
intended as anti-capital ship assets.
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Dave Bender |
1890s vs WWII | ||
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Posts: 5405 (29-Oct-2007 15:59:38) |
taschoene wrote:Perhaps we need to be more time specific. The Jeune Ecole school of thought was about 50 years prior to WWII. At that time CLs only displaced about 3,000 tons. TBs displaced about 100 tons and their engines lacked the power to weight ratio necessary to make them competative with the larger ships in both speed and endurance. Things were vastly different by WWII. Cruisers displaced 6,000 - 12,000 tons. TBs displaced 50 - 100 tons, with speeds of 40 kts and a combat range of 250 miles being common. This made them very potent in constricted waters like the English Channel and around the Soloman Islands. They could conduct their entire combat mission under the cover of darkness, returning to home port before daylight exposed them to enemy aircraft and larger surface ships. I agree that the early American PT boat designs were poorly thought out. In the open ocean they were dead meat if spotted by enemy aircraft or destroyers. When I was in high school one of my teachers was an old PT boat skipper (in the Pacific) from WWII. He talked about how they eventually all but gave up on torpedo attacks and essentially converted their TBs into fast coastal gunboats using whatever weapons and light armor they could scrounge. He specifically mentioned using the 37mm cannon from a crashed P-39 fighter aircraft. They shot up a bunch of Japanese coast craft in the Solomans and around New Guinea, but never fired a torpedo. |
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Electric Joe |
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Posts: 3746 (17-Dec-2007 02:53:19) Straw Boss |
Historically, their effectiveness was almost nil. It is a truism of warfare that for every measure there is a countermeasure. A large platform has the ability
to absorb several iterations of this cycle into its design, while a smaller platform cannot and is quickly rendered obsolete. Larger platforms are also
inherently more dangerous to approach and generally armed with longer-ranged weapons compared to smaller platforms which forces the smaller platforms to resort
to surprise and/or numbers to achieve their goals. At the same time, smaller platforms don't achieve scale savings in maintenance costs, and, in fact, wear
out more rapidly and require more frequent maintenance, often due to the high performance demands placed upon them to cope with the larger platform's
defensive capabilities.
In World War I, losses to motor torpedo boats (MAS) were practically nil, with the only truly significant kill being that of the Austrian dreadnought Szent Istvan, the newest, least-trained unit and reportedly suffering from a certain lack of quality control in its watertight features due to being constructed by a yard new to building such large and complicated vessels. Also in World War I, losses to seagoing torpedo boats and torpedo boat destroyers were also practically nil, with the most significant casualty being the pre-dreadnought Pommern, which blew up from a torpedo hit in the magazine at Jutland. World War I losses to submersible torpedo boats (submarines) were more significant, but failed to touch the ranks of the latest and most powerful battleships, the dreadnoughts. These were faster than the older pre-dreadnoughts and more difficult for slow submersibles to intercept. Pre-dreadnoughts were slower, easier game which also suffered from poor torpedo protection, having been designed predominantly before torpedoes became serious weapons. In contrast, other capital ships killed Invincible, Indefatigable, Queen Mary, and Lutzow (although in fairness, the last did absorb one torpedo from a torpedo boat or torpedo boat destroyer along with about two dozen heavy shells). In World War II, capital ship losses to motor torpedo boats (MTBs) and patrol torpedo boats (PTs) and their foreign ilk (E-boats, S-boats, etc...) were non-existent. World War II capital ship losses to seagoing torpedo boats were also non-existent. Losses to destroyers did take place in World War II, with such craft contributing to the loss of Scharnhorst, Hiei, and Yamashiro, and claiming Fuso without assistance. Submarines achieve greater success in World War II, sinking Royal Oak in harbor, and Barham and Kongo at sea. Submarine-delivered special attack craft and swimmers sank Queen Elizabeth and Valiant in harbor. Again, in contrast, Hood and Kirishima were killed by other capital ships, and Bismarck, Scharnhorst, and Yamashiro were also heavily bombarded by other capital ships, and Hiei by cruisers. Lesser platforms did not live up to their billing as capital ship killers/alternatives. Only aircraft changed that, and even then their effectiveness was limited and the necessary investment to achieve results was massive and not altogether economical. Aircraft displaced capital ships more by virtue of their range than their effectiveness. The only American capital ships losses in World War II were to massive air attack which took place while the ships were moored in harbor in peace-time condition. The only British capital ship losses in World War II to aircraft were to a massive air attack that pitted approximately 80 aircraft against two capital ships. The only German capital ship losses to air attack in World War II involved massive bombing raids against ships in port, although in fairness, the Bismarck was lamed by aerial torpedoes although she was primarily done in by gunfire. The only capital ships lost by the Italians in World War II were either sunk in harbor by air attack, or hit by radio controlled bombs at sea. The Japanese capital ships suffered the most heavily from air attack in World War II. Hiei was stung to death after being ravaged by cruisers and destroyers the night before by virtue of being only about 50 miles from an enemy airfield from which repeated sorties could be launched against her. Musashi absorbed the combined attentions of three carrier task groups. Yamato also absorbed the combined attentions of multiple carrier task groups. Ise, Hyuga, and Haruna were all blasted in harbor by repeated air raids from multiple carrier task groups. Given the investment in hundreds, if not thousands of aircraft, and aircrew; the massive cost of training and maintenance; the provision of capital ships in their own right (carriers) to transport many of these aircraft; the operational and battle casualties involved; the overwhelming numbers that had to be employed to achieve results; and the jeune ecole style predictions of massive effectiveness from minimal numbers with reduced cost compared to capital ships promulgated by their proponents, one can only cast a jaundiced eye on the "economy" of such force. The trend against jeune ecole solutions continues into the present day. SAMs were supposed to render aircraft obsolete, but aircraft have adapted, survived and taken to hunting SAMs. Larger surface ships were declared passe after the Israeli destroyer Eilat was sunk by SSMs, and similar predictions were revived after HMS Sheffield was sunk by an ASM. But the Israelis turned right around and fielded better electronic warfare systems, resulting in the mass-wastage of SSMs in the next engagement and the slaughter of their launching platforms by larger, better-equipped and armed Israeli vessels. And the Argentine air force shot its bolt sinking a couple of British ships, but suffering disproportional damage to its own effectiveness and the British ships also fought back with improved countermeasures. And when the Libyans attempted to engage the US Navy, planes from carriers over the horizon hammered their patrol boats before they ever got in range. During Operation Praying Mantis, Irani patrol boats attempted to fight US Navy frigates and cruisers, but were pummeled by fast SAMs carried by the larger ships before they could fire their own SSMs, and then they were finished off by the US ships' SSMs after being disabled by the SAMs. And when the US went into Iraq, naval aircraft simply conducted a preemptive hunt for the Iraqis' patrol boats and systematically slaughtered them before any surface ship came remotely within range of them. Hope continues to be held out for submarines to tip the balance, but they suffer as much from their medium as it helps them by hiding them. HMS Conqueror got in and killed the General Belgrano, but the San Luis spent weeks failing to come to grips with the British task force. The US Navy deploys its own submarines specifically to hunt and kill other submarines, making an attack on an American capital ship (a carrier) likely to expose the attacking submarine to prompt and lethal retaliation, assuming the American does not preemptively kill the attacker. There can be little doubt that in the event of hostilities with Iran, any Irani submarines that did not promptly clear port would be blasted out of existence at their moorings, and those running for sea room would probably be proceeding directly into the waiting trap of American SSNs that Iran possesses no means of forcing back to a respectful distance. Similar thoughts play out in land warfare. Wits like to state that "everything on the battlefield is designed to kill a tank" and foolishly miss the fact that they're designed that way because a tank is the hardest thing to kill. Such thoughts have also popped up in air warfare, with parties touting "lightweight fighters" as an alternative to larger, more complex fighters. Some were seduced by the artificialities of the Vietnam War into believing this view had some validity, until the Israelis--unhampered by criminally self-defeating rules of engagement--showed what larger, more powerful fighters could do when allowed to fight as they were intended. Subsequent American air attacks have verified the massive advantage of the more sophisticated aircraft over their poorer brethren. None of this is to say that gigantism in weapons systems is universally good. Yamato is an example of too much of a good thing. But just as a knight could mow down dozens of pitchfork armed peasants and set scores more to flight, so a battleship could shatter a few destroyers and chase off a flotilla. As a matter of historical record, the little guy, the little battalions, the little ships and the little planes, tend to lose when going up against the big guy, the big battalions, the big ships and the big planes. This shouldn't be surprising. After all, it took divine intervention for David to defeat Goliath...
Last Edited By: Electric Joe
17-Dec-2007 03:05:06.
Edited 1 times.
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Gernsback |
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Posts: 223 (17-Dec-2007 19:05:20) |
Not to disagree with your main point (as an aside, how did the LWF mafia manage to convince so many people when the heavier fighters were able to outmaneuver NVN MiG's with proper tactics?), but without Combat Tree or a precise vector by Red Crown (Navy CIC, EC-121's not being all that great IIRC), there was liable to be a lot friendly fire (and one instance of an F-4 being vectored by Red Crown on a squad mate if memory serves, the Sparrow luckily failing). |
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JBren1 |
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Posts: 146 (18-Dec-2007 01:14:33) |
'Torpedo boat' is extremely broad as to actual type and timeframe. I assume WWII *motor* torpedo boats are mainly what's meant. The German ones
were quite effective as commerce raiders in restricted waters; look at the record in English Channel, they were a serious a menace until their bases in France
were overrun, with a quite high ratio of sinkings of merchant ships to sinkings of S boats; they were never 'the hunted' to anything like the degree
U-boats were from 1943. Allied MTB's though seldom if ever had the same target opportunities; I agree MTB's were of generally limited effectiveness
against larger warships, though again the German ones had successes even against radar equipped Allied DD-types in 1944.
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NewGolconda |
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Posts: 2948 (18-Dec-2007 01:25:17) Commonwealth Moderator |
The thing that needs to be borne in mind when discussing WWI destroyer torpedo attacks is that although, the relative lethality of the atacks was low, fleet
commanders were forced to make their deployments and take tactical decisions to counter the threat, which had a significant impact on the ability of the fleets
to act as they saw fit. German destroyers may not have sunk British dreadnoughts, but their presence probably stopped german dreadnoughts being sunk.
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jlyons97 |
Cost-effectiveness.... | ||
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Posts: 1145 (18-Dec-2007 23:36:37) |
" But just as a knight could mow down dozens of pitchfork armed peasants and set scores more to flight,...
"...so a battleship could shatter a few destroyers and chase off a flotilla." Both of these statements are true, but not absolutely true. Many expensively-equipped knights were done in by peasants equipped with....longbows. The cost-effective bowman actually dictated tactics on many battlefields. Fuso and Yamishiro, armed to the teeth in classic BB fashion, should have been able to 'chase' off DESRON 54. Not only did not chase off, but did not hit one of the DDs, which sank 1 BB and 2 DDs, and hit one each further BB and DD. Two BBs and three DDs against seven DDs. |
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Electric Joe |
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Posts: 3752 (19-Dec-2007 01:02:07) Straw Boss |
jlyons97 wrote: There are exceptions to every rule, but you don't displace the reigning weapons system by only winning in exceptional circumstances. That's why
longbow men and aircraft took over their respective battlefields. They achieved consistent results and won regularly, rather than by exception. MAB, TBs,
TBDs, DDs, MTBs, PTs, E-Boats, S-Boats, U-boats, etc... did not achieve consistent results and did not live up to their billing. Even aircraft didn't
exactly prove less costly as an alternative, and I have to wonder if procuring millions of arrows was more cost-effective than buying a few hundred suits of
armor (but in warfare, cost-effectiveness takes second place to military effectiveness).
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