HMS Eagle and relief of Malta, 1942

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maxs75	HMS Eagle and relief of Malta, 1942	Lead	[-]
Posts: 284 (26-Sep-2007 23:14:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi, from http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-MaltaSupply02.htm Operation INSECT - Thirty two further Spitfires were shipped from Britain, unfortunately several damaged in transit, in the freighters EMPIRE DARWIN (22 aircraft), EMPIRE KESTREL (4 aircraft) and EMPIRE TERN (2 aircraft) in convoy OG 86 which sailed 2.7 and arrived 14.7. It is presumed that the figures quoted for each freighter are the undamaged aircraft. 31 Spitfires and 4 Swordfish from Gibraltar plus 6 Sea Hurricanes were embarked in EAGLE and sailed on 20.7, with the CAIRO, CHARYBDIS, ANTELOPE, ITHURIEL, VANSITTART, WESTCOTT and WRESTLER, to fly off the aircraft on 21.7, after having been unsuccessfully attacked by the submarine DANDOLO. Was Eagle unable to fly her FAA planes with 41 planes on board, of which only 4 with folding wings? I suspect that all, or many Spitfires were parked on the flight deck. Was the situation so desperate to take the risk? Max
Mark E Horan		#1	[-]
Posts: 331 (26-Sep-2007 23:49:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Max; According to my notes, HMS Eagle carried six Sea Hurricanes (801 Squadron) for fighter defense (three sections of two), for Swordfish (824 Squadron) for anti-submarine patrols (two sections of two), and 29 RAF Spitfires for transfer to Malta (at least that's all that flew off). It was customary to stuff the hanger deck with the RAF machines in both assembled and partially disassembled states. While ranging the intact machines, the next group was reassembled as required. They got real good at this as they did it repeatedly. The CAP & ASP patrols flew in pairs from military dawn to dusk. When not in the air, the duty Sea Hurricanes and their reliefs were on outriggers. The relief ASPs were below right next to the elevator. On the transfer operations they did not close Malta, so the actual need for fightes was to stop shadowing aircraft primarily on the day of the launch. Mark
maxs75		#2	[-]
Posts: 287 (27-Sep-2007 19:33:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks Mark! I never realised that Eagle could be so efficient! Probably the most famous operations were Calendar and Bowery, when USS Wasp was involved. During the second, Eagle carried only 17 Spitfires. Because of they didn't have folding wings and Eagle could carry about 20 planes, I thought it was the maximum she could embark, even without FAA planes. Was the same done with other carriers in similar operations, for example Furious? And was Wasp able to do the same? Being a USN ship, was it possible to assemble Spitfires, or they were all assembled? Max
Mark E Horan		#3	[-]
Posts: 332 (28-Sep-2007 22:02:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Max; It was hardly efficient. It took a considerable time to reasemble a single range of the RAF aircraft, prep them for flight, spot them and launch them. They were flown off a considerable distance from Malta because the ship could not risk going closer in such a state. She may have kept a single range on deck from departure that was manhandled around - I don't know. A USN carrier, (USS Wasp) was specifically chosen because it could carry assembled aircraft in copious quantities. An Wap stored them all below decks be hanging many from the ceiling, per usual practice. Wasp, however, was only available for a short period and was also stood of to limit the possibility of discovery and attack. Furious also could carry more aircraft than Eagle, incuding assemble aircraft, but was only marginally more efficient. These missions were undertaken because of the crisis on Malta and the need to increase the fighter defense there for the upcoming "Pedestal" Convoy upon which the continued existence of Malta depended. Eagle was used because the Royal Navy was, literally down to their last available carrier deck as Argus & Furious loaded in the UK to join the combined available RN fleet carriers, Indomitable & Victorious, to escort that convoy. Mark
maxs75		#4	[-]
Posts: 290 (30-Sep-2007 13:28:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mark, I said efficient because bigger and more modern carrier like Ark Royal and Victorious usually carried less than 30 RAF Hurricane at once. Probably they could have more operational planes to defend the fleet, but I never guess that also Eagle could have some operational planes despite her heavy load. But, well, I guess that assembly Spitfires in a hurry wasn't much liked by the carrier's technicians... For comparison, I would be interested in knowing how many operational Hurricanes could be carried by Eagle (for example during Pedestal) without RAF planes onboard, and how many operational FAA planes could be carried if a lower number of RAF Spitfires was embarked (For example, during the early part of 1942 she carried about 15-17 of them, during Spotter and Picket and Bowery operations). Max
Mark E Horan		#5	[-]
Posts: 336 (30-Sep-2007 17:41:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Max; Eagle operated sixteen Sea Hurricanes assembled and four spares dissssembled during Pedestal. To carry any more down below required at least one wing to be removed - hence the massive work to get the fighters ready to go. Mark
Admiral Beez		#6	[-]
Posts: 4150 ( 1-Oct-2007 17:43:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	How many Spitfires could Indomitable have carried to Malaya, in addition to her full FAA aircraft complement?
Mark E Horan		#7	[-]
Posts: 338 ( 1-Oct-2007 22:37:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Admiral; Indomitable could not have carried any Spitfires for transfer to Malta "in addition to her full FAA aircraft complement". No carrier carried aircraft to Malta with their full aircraft complement aboard. USS Wasp left most of her airgroup at Hatston when she went to the Med. (That is where they learned all the night flying stuff and trained for such prior to the deployment to the Pacific.) HMS Argus, HMS Eagle, HMS Furious, and HMS Ark Royal always most (the first three) or some (the later) of their aircraft behind when carrying RAF birds. Mark
Admiral Beez		#8	[-]
Posts: 4151 ( 2-Oct-2007 02:11:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Surely all 40-odd aircraft of Indomitable's airgroup could have been struck below in the hanger, while the deck could be filled with Spitfires, wrapped and ready to the lifted off by crane at Singapore?
NewGolconda		#9	[-]
Posts: 2740 ( 2-Oct-2007 02:30:31) Commonwealth Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The air defences of Singapore and Malaya needed a great deal many things before they needed a load of Spitfires dropped off on a wharf. Please, please, please read Buffaloes over Singapore. Please.
maxs75		#10	[-]
Posts: 293 ( 2-Oct-2007 19:39:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mark E Horan wrote: Max; Eagle operated sixteen Sea Hurricanes assembled and four spares dissssembled during Pedestal. To carry any more down below required at least one wing to be removed - hence the massive work to get the fighters ready to go. Mark Do you mean 16 hurricanes all in the hangar (+ 4 disassembled in the hangar as well?) Were outriggers used? The comparison between Pedestal and Insect is 10 assembled Hurricane vs 4 Swordfish and 27 disassembled Spitfires. (plus 6 Hurricanes and 4 disassembled Hurry/Spit). The unfolding wings and probably need to move planes in the ship had as result a lot of planes less. As from Spotter to LB, Eagle never embarked more than 17 Spitfires, and always had another escorting carrier (either Argus or Wasp), were the RAF planes all ready to fly? ASP/CAP could be provided by the other carrier. Thanks in advance Max
Mark E Horan		#11	[-]
Posts: 340 ( 2-Oct-2007 22:57:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Admiral; What RN person in their right mind would reccomend striking the entire aircraft complement below decks on HMS Indomitable (or for that matter, any carrier), then fill her flight deck with RAF Spitfires, assembled or not, and steam ANYWHERE near a place where as much as a single enemy armed recon plane could show up and bomb or torpedo her? Even when HMS Furious was bringing RAF planes south to the Takoradi route, she carried aircraft for defense, stowed the RAF machine below, and maintained the ability to operate aircraft! Mark
bennett0		#12	[-]
Posts: 203 ( 7-Oct-2007 02:49:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Maybe it was because the RAF aircraft couldn't be safely placed in the hangar. Both times the Wasp carried Spitfires to Malta, the aircraft were so poorly prepared that they leaked fuel all over the place. IIRC, the skipper refused to allow them aboard until they were fixed. The Wasp mechanics then spent the whole trip working on them so the pilots would at least have some chance. This happened not once but TWICE. The RN people might not have been able or willing to stand up the the RAF. Can't remember where I read this, but if somebody wants a reference I'll try to find it.
Admiral Beez		#13	[-]
Posts: 4158 ( 7-Oct-2007 03:18:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	NewGolconda wrote: The air defences of Singapore and Malaya needed a great deal many things before they needed a load of Spitfires dropped off on a wharf. Please, please, please read Buffaloes over Singapore. Please. I'm not saying the Spitfires would have done the job, but was asking how Spits could have been embarked if the full FAA air group was struck below in the hanger. I don't need the book to tell me what Singapore and Malaya needed. Start your quote here...Here's my list...air intercept radar and good AA defences for RAF airfields, well dispersed airfields, yes Spitfires (Buffalos are okay, but Spits are better, and are doing little post BoB), land mines, lots of land mines along the Thai border, well trained, equipped and combat experienced infantry, destroyers, MTB and cruisers to engage any landings, anti-tank weaponry, secure water, ammunition, fuel and food supplies sufficient for a prolonged seige, artillery and motars, Beaufighters, light tanks/armour, and lastly, a healthy regard and understanding at both the PMO in Britain and in the field of Japan's capabilities and tactics (for instance, surely bicycle troops were used in China and could have been anticipated), and leadership of the defences executed accordingly....end quote here. Last Edited By: Admiral Beez 7-Oct-2007 04:36:52. Edited 1 times.
Admiral Beez		#14	[-]
Posts: 4159 ( 7-Oct-2007 04:41:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mark E Horan wrote: Admiral; What RN person in their right mind would reccomend striking the entire aircraft complement below decks on HMS Indomitable (or for that matter, any carrier), then fill her flight deck with RAF Spitfires, assembled or not, and steam ANYWHERE near a place where as much as a single enemy armed recon plane could show up and bomb or torpedo her? Even when HMS Furious was bringing RAF planes south to the Takoradi route, she carried aircraft for defense, stowed the RAF machine below, and maintained the ability to operate aircraft! Mark There wasn't a Pacific war on at the time. Had Indomitable arrived in late November, she would have delivered her Spits. However, I was more wondering how many aircraft could be placed on deck for ferry work, than if it was a good idea. Of course one might ask, what RN person in their right mind would send a new battleship, an old battlecruiser and four destroyers as naval deterrent to the Japanese without waiting for your carrier to be repaired, thus moving into the area without any in-house air cover?
bager1968		#15	[-]
Posts: 2596 ( 8-Oct-2007 04:01:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Geez, Beez... having problems remembering the raiders the Germans had... some in the IO, and still in operation in late 1941? I'm sure the RN remembered... and the fate of the last RN carrier caught without air cover by German surface ships. And how about HMAS Sydney? Having a useable flight deck was important in the IO just as much as in the Atlantic!
Admiral Beez		#16	[-]
Posts: 4164 ( 8-Oct-2007 22:42:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	bager1968 wrote: Geez, Beez... having problems remembering the raiders the Germans had... some in the IO, and still in operation in late 1941? I'm sure the RN remembered... and the fate of the last RN carrier caught without air cover by German surface ships. And how about HMAS Sydney? Having a useable flight deck was important in the IO just as much as in the Atlantic! I'd say Sydney had problems remembering. My Indomitable would have had Repulse and PoW, plus four DDs, more than enough to deal with a pocket battleship or two.
SON OF A SPIT	5/9/42 SPITFIRE DELIVERY TO MALTA FROM HMS EAGLE	#17	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 1 (10-Nov-2007 01:56:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I need help. I have commissioned a memorial painting/print project to honor my Dad, Sergeant-Pilot L. Joseph Morsheimer (1918-2000) and the men who flew these missions. My Dad flew two missions detached from RAF 611 to Malta Sq 126 and 185. For the 5/9/42 flight, we have had lots of arguments at to the camo AND armament scheme of BR169. Does anyone have any actual pictures of Spitfires from this flight? Are there any pictures of the HMS Eagle launching from this flight (perhaps from Wasp)? If anyone knows an actual surviving pilot who can comment, can they please assist me in contacting him? My plan is to give (FREE) a signed, limited edition print to any pilot or their family who flew with 611, 126 or 185 Squadrons or any Malta pilot OR ANYONE WHO OFFERS MATERIAL ASSISTANCE. We will also need people to help identify and validate the pilots or their famalies. This is a memorial project so that future generations will never forget these men and what they did for our freedom. Yes, my Dad was a Yank in the RAF via the RCAF, which is why I'm a son of a Spit. Thanks, Fred Morsheimer Amherst, NH USA
SON OF A SPIT	THE PEAK OF THE BATTLE FOR MALTA IN MAY 1942	#18	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 2 ( 7-Jun-2008 05:51:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A great deal seems to be made about Pedestal being the savior of Malta. In the literal sense this is true, as the people of Malta were starving to death, sick and worn out. There were also only ten operational aircraft. That said, Brian Cull, in Spitfires over Malta, calls May 1942 as the "Battle For Survival." Prime Minister Churchill would not have requested the additional two missions from Wasp with Eagle along with the battle cruiser HMS Renown of 15 inch guns for a total of 14 ships in the convoy if he did not believe Malta was near collapse. It could hardly defend itself nor could the population endure without hope. If not for the success of Operation Bowery on 5/9 with Eagle and Wasp, Malta would not have survived until Pedestal. By June, Operation Style - 6/3, Cull entitles the chapter "On The Brink Of Victory." By then, German aircraft were soon to start withdrawing to the Eastern Front. True, the new German strategy had been agreed to earlier, but such a withdrawal from one theatre to another could not be accomplished over night. Bowery was the "peak of the crisis" and Style put the island in a position to soon move from defensive to offensive tactics. Malta was not the reason for success for North Africa, but it played a vital role. It forced Rommel to depend on just in time deliveries, which limited stock piles of vital materials, captured vital intelligence, opened offensive opportunities in Italy and became a key base to attack N. Africa. One cannot understate the importance of Malta for pure political reasons, as Churchill understood. It was a beacon of freedom and equally important to the British psyche as other members of the Empire. It would not be given up without a fight.
jlyons97	(That is where they learned all the night flying stuff	#19	[-]
Posts: 1516 ( 7-Jun-2008 06:47:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	(That is where they learned all the night flying stuff and trained for such prior to the deployment to the Pacific.) This is interesting. Where is it documented?
SON OF A SPIT	DOCUMENTATION FOR IMPORTANCE OF OPERATION BOWERY	#20	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 3 ( 7-Jun-2008 19:05:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	1. SPITFIRES OVER MALTA: The Epic Air Battles of 1942, Brian Cull; Grub Street, London, 2005 P.96-106 With the success of Bowery, "Prime Minister Churchill was jubilant and cabled his appreciation to the US President, exulting: "Who says a Wasp cannot sting twice." Cull then subtitles the section on P106 10 May 1942, a turning point." "On 10 May, the defenders were ready for the Axis raiders as never before." The action is detailed including extracts from pilot logs. The German losses are severe. Cull summarizes: "This had been a serious and meaningful defense - no longer a token effort - and indeed 10 May can justifiably be claimed to have been the turning point in Malta's fortunes." The importance of Brian Cull and his co-writer, Frederick Galea, is that he puts the battle in it's full context. My father, L.J. Morsheimer is listed as one of the pilots from 611 Squadron on P. 97. The painting to memoralize Operation Bowery and the men who delivered the Spits, "To Malta, For Freedom" by Jim Laurier is about half complete. It captures all the ships and many Spits from a pilots perspective. For some odd reason, Dad is not listed on Operation Style, 6-3-42, however it is noted in his log book. I believe he replaced someone for some reason unknown to us today. 2. THE PATH TO VICTORY: The Mediterranean Theater in WWII, Douglas Pouch; Farrar, Straus and Giroux, NY, p 262-265 The chapter is entitled "The Great Kingdom of Terror." In Oct. 41 Hitler ordered every available plane that could be spared from the Eastern Front to neutralize Malta. By the end of March, 1942, 126 RAF planes had been destroyed on the ground and 20 shot down. This was music to the ears of Rommel, who received 150,000 tons of supplies. Churchill feared that the island would succumb by mid-June at the latest, even without an invasion. Pilots were considered 'Dead men on holiday.' Malta's surreme value, even during the period of intensive bombardment was as a night refueling stop for bombers flying from Gibraltar to Egypt. In April, to bolster Malta's capacity to defend itself, Chrchill asked Roosevelt for the loan of the Wasp. On 20 April, Wasp launched 47 Spitfires. Only one failed to reach the island but 30 destroyed on the ground. By May, Churchill concluded Malta faced either invasion or surrender or a combination of the both. On 9 May, the Wasp and Eagle returned with another delivery. Porch suggests Kesselring had started to withdraw aircraft to the Eastern Front and that Malta did a better job of being prepared to receive them. From Cull and Dad's log, the Germans still put up a furious attack against the incoming aircraft.

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HMS Eagle and relief of Malta, 1942

HMS Eagle and relief of Malta, 1942

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