I am looking for a reasonable book on the development of early diesel engines for ships, submarines and perhaps locomotives.
ANyone have any recomendations?
ANyone have any recomendations?
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 NewGolconda |
Good book on early diesel history? |
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Posts: 3475 (30-Jun-2007 22:42:27) Commonwealth Moderator |
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Dave Bender |
Book on the development of early diesel engines for ships | ||
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Posts: 6735 ( 1-Jul-2007 13:17:57) |
If you find one please let me know. I have searched all over the internet for such information but can only find bits and pieces.
One of the most interesting tidbits is at the below link. According to this paper MAN had a 5,000 shp maritime diesel available in 1911 and a 12,000 shp engine available in 1917. Unfortunately the MAN web site is rather fuzzy concerning their WWI era technical milestones. www.gwpda.org/naval/proppl.htm |
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 WarshipAdmin |
Re: Book on the development of early diesel engines for ship | ||
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Posts: 1061 ( 2-Jul-2007 04:18:33) |
I'm not saying it isn't so, but that is out of line with the situation in 1920, as reported by one of Froude's associates ("Ship Form, Resistance and Screw Propulsion" by GS Baker, published in 1920), who wrote that 2000 shp was the upper end of the envelope for maritime diesels.
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Dave Bender |
Re: Book on the development of early diesel engines for ship | ||
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Posts: 6735 ( 2-Jul-2007 17:34:35) |
Quote: That particular book is wrong. 2,000 shp maritime diesels were available in 1914, as they were being installed in merchant vessels like the one shown below. Obviously diesel technology would continue to advance after 1914. However finding the shp milestones is not easy. Fionia (1914) Built: Burmeister & Wain, Copenhagen, Denmark (Yard No. 293) Tonnage: 6822 dwt., 5219 gt. (later 5347 gt.) LOA: 394.4' Beam: 53.2' Draught: 24.6' Diesel: twin-screw, 4000 HP, service speed 12.5 knots www.dieselduck.ca/library...movers.htm Here is a diesel timeline that provides some information. It is worth noting that Sulzer produced a 2,016 shp (1,472 kw) diesel in 1911, and immediately began working on a larger version to produce 3,781 shp (2,760 kw). Although I have no proof, I think it is entirely possible for MAN to have reached the 12,000 shp milestone in 1917, especially if the research was being generously funded by the German navy. |
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WarshipAdmin |
Re: Book on the development of early diesel engines for ship | ||
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Posts: 1061 ( 3-Jul-2007 04:23:41) |
Link's busted.
So fionia had a single diesel engine, and then some sort of gearbox to split the drive? Not unheard of, but a quick and easy way to lose 2% in efficiency |
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Dave Bender |
Fionia had a single diesel engine | ||
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Posts: 6735 ( 3-Jul-2007 14:10:22) |
Unfortunately I can find nothing more specific on the Fionia. However it has 2 shafts so I assume the 4,000 shp total consisted of 2 x 2,000 shp diesels. 1 for each shaft.
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NewGolconda |
Re: Fionia had a single diesel engine | ||
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Posts: 3475 ( 7-Jul-2007 01:04:18) Commonwealth Moderator |
As a partial solution I have found a book on myshelves that I hadnt considered "workhorses in australian waters" which details the history of marine engines in Australia. It has a chapter on early motor shipsin the 1920's, which it appeared to me acived thier power outputs of 5-12000 horsepower through muliple iterations of 2-4 2-3000hp units, one per shaft.
I got the general feeling that a 1920's motor ship, with blast injected 4 stroke diesels, exposed valves and an army og "greasers" was not a pleasent place to be. |
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Duncan MacKinnon |
shp/bhp | ||
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Posts: 225 ( 8-Jul-2007 20:56:25) |
If I'm teaching anyone to suck eggs here no offence intended but diesel engines are rated in brake horse power, that is what you get out the end of the engine before any losses in gearing, thrust block etc.
Shaft horsepower is what you get at the propeller, whatever the prime mover. So for a direct coupled diesel (generally slow speeds) the bhp and shp will be the same, assuming the thrust block is within the engine. For geared diesels the shp will be the bhp less the losses in the gearbox. Most, I'm not saying all because someone will quote me otherwise, motor ships in the twenties and thirties would have had two stroke main engines, not four strokes. Two strokes develop more power and didn't need gearing which was expensive. I actually worked on a tug which had a Deutz 4 stroke main engine with open rocker gear. We had two squirt cans to keep it lubricated, one with straight lub oil which went in the pots on the rocker shafts and one with a mix of lub oil and gas oil for lubricating the valve stems. It was a beautifully balanced engine and even on the coldest winter morning it started with just the lightest puff of air. |
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Duncan MacKinnon |
Re: 12,000 shp milestone in 1917 | ||
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Posts: 225 ( 9-Jul-2007 14:23:09) |
I have my doubts that a 12,000bhp diesel would be possible in 1917.
For a two stroke the biggest problem would be scavenging. In a two stroke the air supplied to the cylinder isn't just for combustion, it is an essential part of clearing the exhaust gas from the cylinder as there is no complete exhaust stroke to empty the cylinder before induction of air for compression. Turbocharging was non existent at the time and two strokes relied on methods such as scavenge pumps driven from the crankshaft. Under piston scavenging may have been around then but I'm not sure. A two stroke diesel can't run normally aspirated, it has to have positive scavenging pressure and that would have been the limiting factor in engine design at the time. Even modern slow speeds usually have an auxiliary electric driven blower to maintain a positive pressure in the scavenge space at low load. Another combination I have seen on a couple of different medium speed two strokes is a Rootes blower for light load in conjunction with a turbocharger that supplies the boost once there's a bit of load on. General Motors also had a geared turbocharger on some of the EMD series. The blower was driven by gears until the turbine was spinning hard enough to disengage a centrifugal clutch. None of these options were around at the time though so I think a 12,000bhp engine would be impossible. Metallurgy and manufacturing limitations would also play a part. |
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Dave Bender |
Turbocharging was non existent at the time | ||
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Posts: 6735 ( 9-Jul-2007 15:46:17) |
That's not true. Daimler began experimenting with automotive superchargers in 1900.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_blower I have never heard of turbocharging or supercharging being used on diesel engines at this early date, but that does not mean it didn't happen. We need the details for this particular MAN engine, which unfortunately I cannot find. |
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Duncan MacKinnon |
superchargers and turbochargers | ||
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Posts: 225 ( 9-Jul-2007 22:48:17) |
A supercharger is not a turbocharger Dave.
A supercharger is generally accepted as being mechanically driven and absorbs power from the engine. The rootes blower is probably the most well known although it isn't the only one. A turbocharger (or turbo-supercharger) is quite specifically a device driven by exhaust gas and does not absorb power from the engine to develop boost pressure, other than the slight loss associated with overcoming back pressure in the exhaust. Turbochargers didn't come in to use on marine diesels until the twenties. Strictly speaking all two stroke diesels have to have some degree of supercharging for them to run, although that isn't quite the same as using some form of supercharging to boost power output. I have a contact in MAN B&W through my job, if you can give me what you know on the engine I will see if he can find anything out about it. |
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