Hiroshima Day in The Politics Of War Forum

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Hiroshima Day

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Fred the Great		#21	[-]
Posts: 3603 Aug 7 12 5:17 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Fred, I never turned a blind eye to Sandusky, you know the animal who raped children. I didn't say you did. I said you defended on this board those who turned a blind eye to Sandusky.
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Fred the Great		#22	[-]
Posts: 3603 Aug 7 12 5:21 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm not following your logic Beastro. The Brits carried out strategic bombing because they believed it would help to win the war. I agree with that. The Germans only did it because they wanted to cause terror and weren't interested if it won the war or not? Is that what you're saying? What is interesting with this issue is that the opinion on whether it is right or wrong seems to come down to who did it. Who was it who said that if the US had somehow lost the war after dropping the atomic bombs then those responsible would be executed as war criminals?
Beastro of Nektulos		#23	[-]
Posts: 1062 Aug 7 12 6:00 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Fred the Great wrote: The Germans only did it because they wanted to cause terror and weren't interested if it won the war or not? Is that what you're saying? The British seemed more focused on ending the fighting by the most efficient means at their disposal, the same could not be said for the Germans who liked to mix things up at times depending on the mood of Hitler and other vengeance minded leaders. Who was it who said that if the US had somehow lost the war after dropping the atomic bombs then those responsible would be executed as war criminals? The mentality behind those who prosecuted the war against Japan and Germany in the West wasn't the same mentality of those in Germany and Japan who prosecuted the war against us. If the US had lost the Germans and Japanese would have executed whoever they didn't like regardless of what they did. Our leaders seriously mulled over the implications of what they were ordering and there was a lot of in fight with the welfare of the enemy solidly in most of their minds. Leahy may have been misguided to think that a blockade was better than the nukes after the war, but do you honest think that Himmler and Goering or Toto and pals had fights over such topics?
Fred the Great		#24	[-]
Posts: 3603 Aug 7 12 6:31 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The British seemed more focused on ending the fighting by the most efficient means at their disposal, the same could not be said for the Germans who liked to mix things up at times depending on the mood of Hitler and other vengeance minded leaders. This just panders to the mythology that the Allies were good and clever and the Axis were evil and nuts. Leaving the morality aside, the Germans lacked the clear thinking on strategic bombing that the Brits developed, but it wasn't merely about Hitler's moods or vengeance, one of the greatest mistakes the Germans made was in not maintaining the pressure on a single point. They bombed one type of industry and then another, giving the first respite. In spite of not having developed heavy bombers pre-war or foreseen the need for such bombers, they actually pioneered some of the capabilities later used by the Allies in their strategic bombing campaigns. If you honestly think for a second they didn't have the same war aims as the Brits in carrying out such bombing operations then you're seriously misguided. On the moral level, there is no difference in what the Germans did in terms of strategic bombing compared to what the Allies did, except for the scale of the latter being many times greater. Put the question of the use of atomic bombs in reverse: If the Germans had managed to build a couple and used them before ultimately losing the war, do you honestly think the Allies wouldn't have executed as war criminals those responsible? All of this, and most of the discussion, is away from the central point here, should we really be expressing happiness in the bombing of a city? Seriously? Are we that depraved? We can see something as necessary in wartime, an ends justifying the means argument that does stack up, but to express happiness in so much death and suffering?
Global bullyman		#25	[-]
Posts: 269 Aug 7 12 2:17 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Fred the Great wrote: Besides the fact it's now 67 years after the event, I would have thought it would be time to show a little more sensitivity. I can agree with that and I hope that the Japanese could do the same to the victims of Imperial Japan. We are stil waiting for that sensitivity to come.
Larrikin22		#26	[-]
Posts: 4340 Aug 7 12 3:12 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Given the Luftwaffe's treatment of Guernica and Rotterdam, the Brits had damned good reason to believe that the Germans saw the bombing of cities as a terror weapon, just as their fire bomb raids over London in WWI had been. You can lead a leftard to knowledge, but you can't make them think
sergeante		#27	[-]
Posts: 4254 Aug 7 12 3:33 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Larrikin22 wrote: Given the Luftwaffe's treatment of Guernica and Rotterdam, the Brits had damned good reason to believe that the Germans saw the bombing of cities as a terror weapon, just as their fire bomb raids over London in WWI had been. Be that as it may, the British were no less convinced that bombing was a terror weapon. You...ze Amerikan armee
Beastro of Nektulos		#28	[-]
Posts: 1062 Aug 7 12 11:50 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Fred the Great wrote: All of this, and most of the discussion, is away from the central point here, should we really be expressing happiness in the bombing of a city? Seriously? Are we that depraved? We can see something as necessary in wartime, an ends justifying the means argument that does stack up, but to express happiness in so much death and suffering? It's meant to provoke and be taboo breaking because of the overwhelming view by many that the bombings were unjustified and weren't the best thing to do to end the war. On top of that is Japanese self-victimization while they openly ignore the majority of the atrocities they committed in the Far East. It's an overall extension of their view on the war, which I've summed up as "We're sorry.... we lost." I'll defend the Dresden bombing as ardently as Hiroshima or Tokyo, but that doesn't come up nearly as much as much, or is mocked with happiness on it's anniversary, because the Germans as a whole have really shown that they acknowledge the evil that they did during the war and only a small minority have taken the victimized route over the bombing and most of them are Neo-Nazi's. One is a country that is repentant, the other always keeps coming off as holding to the same mentality they had during the war, only instead of them being the Master Yamato Race that was the center of the universe and destined to conquer the eight corners of the world, it's the the Yamato race angry that America had the gall to slaughter them on as massive a scale as they themselves were doing to the Chinese and other Orientals. It's just a comment from another board, I have no solid evidence to back it up, but another person mentioned that the death tool of both bombs amounted to the three week death toll in China from the beginning to end of the war. Six years of unending slaughter and that is just China alone.
Global bullyman		#29	[-]
Posts: 269 Aug 8 12 8:45 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Beastro of Nektulos wrote: It's an overall extension of their view on the war, which I've summed up as "We're sorry.... we lost." Or, "China never defeated Japan. Japan surrendered only to the United States." http://www.economist.com/.../1537197#...-1537196
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Beastro of Nektulos		#30	[-]
Posts: 1062 Aug 8 12 12:04 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Global bullyman wrote: Beastro of Nektulos wrote: It's an overall extension of their view on the war, which I've summed up as "We're sorry.... we lost." Or, "China never defeated Japan. Japan surrendered only to the United States." http://www.economist.com/.../1537197#...-1537196 I may have issues with you as a poster, Bullyman, but I find myself agreeing with you here. I don't like the "Who really won the war?" arguments that usually focus on whether it was the Western Allies or the USSR and ignore that both sides had unique roles in crushing Germany, but China played the Soviets role in the Pacific War, being a mean grinder for both the Japanese and, most of all, your countrymen, that forced them to pour the majority of their resources into their fight with you leaving the Allies mainly dealing with the IJN. As I said, I have issues with you as poster and modern China isn't exactly my favourite nation, but I have deep respect for your country and your people's sacrifices during the war and it is the occupation and rising butchers bill as the war continued in you country and the rest of the Orient that has become the focus of my support for using the bombs. There are many parts of the war that have been overshadowed, but I consider the war on continental Asia to be the most unsung, it was that very war that was the reason why Japan attacked the US in the first place. Yes, the Allies would have lost hundreds of thousands invading Japan, but mainland Asia has already lost millions and hundreds of thousands continued to die on a monthly basis. That is the heart of why I look on the bombings with no pity and dabble in the mock celebration to their anniversary because it's the Japanese trying to steal the spotlight that should be given to the rest of the Far East for the evils they committed. Sorry for the rant. Tired and angered about this subject.
Beastro of Nektulos		#31	[-]
Posts: 1062 Aug 8 12 12:09 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	sergeante wrote: Larrikin22 wrote: Given the Luftwaffe's treatment of Guernica and Rotterdam, the Brits had damned good reason to believe that the Germans saw the bombing of cities as a terror weapon, just as their fire bomb raids over London in WWI had been. Be that as it may, the British were no less convinced that bombing was a terror weapon. But it was the aim to shorten the war and ultimately minimize casualties on both sides. A little bit of hell in cities to keep the hell of the trenches from coming back for a second time. Now professional men in the German military might have held the same end justifies the means and "humane" view point, but that did not extend to their upper tier of their leadership, most of all their civilian masters.
IcelofAngeln		#32	[-]
Posts: 5931 Aug 8 12 5:39 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	WRT Arthur Harris and Bomber Command: When all you have is a hammer etc. Heavy bombers at night had a CEP measured in kilometers; "city" pretty much was the limit of the accuracy of which they were capable. Even operating in daylight with a high-tech (for the time) bomb sight, USAAF "precision" level bombing meant pulverising everything within a klick or so of the target, with maybe a couple of actual hits. This doesn't mean that Bomber Command didn't make a strategy out of necessity, or happily imbibe Douhet: "The ultimate aim of an attack on a town area is to break the morale of the population which occupies it. To ensure this, we must achieve two things: first, we must make the town physically uninhabitable and, secondly, we must make the people conscious of constant personal danger. The immediate aim, is therefore, twofold, namely, to produce (i) destruction and (ii) fear of death." (Butts report) (No, 617 Sqn doesn't count). Liberalism is political Munchhausen's-by-proxy syndrome
sergeante		#33	[-]
Posts: 4254 Aug 8 12 6:59 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Beastro of Nektulos wrote: But it was the aim [of Bomber Command] to shorten the war and ultimately minimize casualties on both sides. A little bit of hell in cities to keep the hell of the trenches from coming back for a second time. Now professional men in the German military might have held the same end justifies the means and "humane" view point, but that did not extend to their upper tier of their leadership, most of all their civilian masters. That was the aim of pretty much all strategic bombing. Even the Blitz had as its ultimate aim the shortening of the war against Great Britain, first by means of invasion, later by means of terror and exhaustion. It's no less true of Rotterdam, Warsaw, or Guernica. (Though in the case of Guernica, on an operational rather than strategic level.) And I don't think the German "civilian"* leadership can take the blame for personal viciousness alone. Allied -- and particularly British -- governments were often incredibly bloodthirsty when it came ot bombing. Opposition to Bomber command was not focused on what it was doing, rather on whether what it was doing was effective, in light of the human and material cost. Though there never really was such a thing. Hitler's "frontkämpfer" mentality led to all ranks of the Party leadership being filled with former soldiers, and to many Party and government functions being effecitvely militarized, or paramilitarized. You...ze Amerikan armee
Larrikin22		#34	[-]
Posts: 4340 Aug 8 12 7:55 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	US day bombers had a CEP of miles as well. That's what you get when you have a formation that measures in miles and drops simultaneously off a lead bomber. Even if the lead bomber is spot on, everybody left and right of him will be that far left and right of him when they drop, etc, etc. By mid 1944 BC was more accurate through 10/10ths cloud on a moonless night that the USAAF was under anything except no opposition on a cloudless windless day. You can lead a leftard to knowledge, but you can't make them think
sergeante		#35	[-]
Posts: 4254 Aug 9 12 12:24 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Larrikin22 wrote: US day bombers had a CEP of miles as well. That's what you get when you have a formation that measures in miles and drops simultaneously off a lead bomber. Even if the lead bomber is spot on, everybody left and right of him will be that far left and right of him when they drop, etc, etc. Ummm...sorry, but that wasn't the case. Coordinated bombing -- not alwways used, BTW -- was done by groups of 21-36 aircraft, flying in close formation. By mid 1944 BC was more accurate through 10/10ths cloud on a moonless night that the USAAF was under anything except no opposition on a cloudless windless day. More of your outrageous claims, I see. Bomber command no doubt got better, but there's no way they could outperform daylight bombing -- either their own or the USAAF's -- when even their pathfinders couldn't see the target, even with radar. You...ze Amerikan armee
frontkampfer		#36	[-]
Posts: 239 Aug 9 12 3:02 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The bomb was dropped twice and the war ended. My dad lived as did many, many others. That includes the Japanese. Period! "I will not have my ship shot out from under my ass!"
Nightwatch2		#37	[-]
Posts: 13072 Aug 9 12 4:42 PM Air Boss Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	sergeante wrote: Larrikin22 wrote: US day bombers had a CEP of miles as well. That's what you get when you have a formation that measures in miles and drops simultaneously off a lead bomber. Even if the lead bomber is spot on, everybody left and right of him will be that far left and right of him when they drop, etc, etc. Ummm...sorry, but that wasn't the case. Coordinated bombing -- not alwways used, BTW -- was done by groups of 21-36 aircraft, flying in close formation. By mid 1944 BC was more accurate through 10/10ths cloud on a moonless night that the USAAF was under anything except no opposition on a cloudless windless day. More of your outrageous claims, I see. Bomber command no doubt got better, but there's no way they could outperform daylight bombing -- either their own or the USAAF's -- when even their pathfinders couldn't see the target, even with radar. concur. there are quite a lot of bombing photos around that show such and such industrial plant with amost every crater inside the perimeter of the plant. Daylight precision bombing was fairly precise. Granted, not up to modern standards of precision guided munitions, but pretty darn accurate and our bombing raids tended to go after specific point targets and obliterated those while avoiding wasting bombs on the general countryside. Yes - the technology of the time required a "stick" of bombs to walk across the target area which would also hit some of the surrounding neighborhoods. But our guys did not just wander about dropping bombs at random across the countryside hoping to hit something important. "Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and given him triumphal processions. Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the new wonderful good society which shall now be Rome's, interpreted to mean more money, more ease, more security, and more living fatly at the expense of the industrious." --
sergeante		#38	[-]
Posts: 4254 Aug 9 12 6:10 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Nightwatch2 wrote: concur. there are quite a lot of bombing photos around that show such and such industrial plant with amost every crater inside the perimeter of the plant. Daylight precision bombing was fairly precise. Granted, not up to modern standards of precision guided munitions, but pretty darn accurate and our bombing raids tended to go after specific point targets and obliterated those while avoiding wasting bombs on the general countryside. Yes - the technology of the time required a "stick" of bombs to walk across the target area which would also hit some of the surrounding neighborhoods. But our guys did not just wander about dropping bombs at random across the countryside hoping to hit something important. Probably the most effective bombing in 1944 was against transportation infrastructure targets. The targets -- rail yards, bridges, and viaducts -- were relatively easy to find, almost perfectly sized for a group bombing pattern (particularly the average Western European rail yard), and almost impossible to effectively defend (which one of a dozen on, or close to, the current bomber heading is the actual target today?). Also, mass bombing of tactical targets by strategic bombers could be very effective, if well planned and coordinated. The first attempts eralyi n the Normandy campaign didn't work out all that well, but starting with Operation Cobra, they got more and more effective. By 1945 they were conducted with almost chess-like precision (see Cleves). You...ze Amerikan armee
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