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Alt History Scenario Question - Pertains to Naval buildup

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Joshua Kintner	Alt History Scenario Question - Pertains to Naval buildup	Lead	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 445 (11-Jul-2008 20:12:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In 1900-1914. In this alternate scenario which I dreamed up yesterday, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Paraguay, and Uruguay exist only as states within a larger country, the South American equivalent of the USA, the USSA (United States of South America). The formation occurs roughly in 1850 or thereabouts. The question I have is, how would they build their navy, how would it be deployed, and how it would it look aside from historical differences? The two biggest exports military wise I can think of atm would be the bird guano mined in old Chilean territory, and tungsten ore mined in old Bolivian territory. The allegiance of the USSA would be with Germany and Austria, and I wonder how this allegiance would impact WW1, and the naval buildup prior to the war. But I imagine if the allegiances are with Germany, then the USSA would probably be buying their warships from the USA instead of Britian?
Doc Dynamo		#1	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 3 (11-Jul-2008 21:44:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What impact do you think your USSA allying with Germany/Austria would have on US attitudes? I suspect this would lead the USA to join the Entente because of rivalry with the USSA and a belief that the alliance is a violation of the Monroe Doctrine. It's hard to believe that a second superpower in the Western Hemisphere would have friendly relations with the US. If the US joins the Entente this would essentially remove the USSA from the board, wouldn't it?
Michael		#2	[-]
Posts: 363 (11-Jul-2008 22:34:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In a situation with a large, potentially hostile, navy in the region,I can imagine that the British would have fortified the Falkland islands (minefields, some heavy coastal artillery, and land fortifications round Stanley - similar to Malta's fortifications). The main battlefleet is probably still facing off the Germans, but I can see the RN basing a submarine flotilla or two there, and maybe some of the older Destroyers as well (probably not enough to stop a serious full scale assault, but enough to act as a trip wire and make the USSA think twice before trying a land grab). Given that NO ONE has any serious ASW in 1914, the sub flotilla could make any invasion attempt really nasty.
No1catman		#3	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 54 (11-Jul-2008 22:57:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Why allied with Germany and Austria? Why not Spain - where Latin America's heritage come from? Or indeed Britain - a lot of British capital was being invested in South America - I think at one time Argentina might have become part of the Empire in a voluntary way. Britain after all did build Battleships for Brazil. I could see the continent becoming a Latin Common Market, but a Federation as per the US of A seems unlikely to me. Intrigued to see how!!
Joshua Kintner		#4	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 446 (12-Jul-2008 00:31:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Why allied with Germany and Austria? Why not Spain - where Latin America's heritage come from? Or indeed Britain - a lot of British capital was being invested in South America - I think at one time Argentina might have become part of the Empire in a voluntary way. Britain after all did build Battleships for Brazil. As Britian also built battleships for Chile as well, while Argentine ships were built in the United States. Indeed, allying with Germany and Austria was only one scenario within the scenario I put forth. Let's say that the USSA allies with Britian instead. If there is indeed a strong sense of comptetition to the USA, would this put the USA more on Germany's side? One thing, at least from a naval standpoint, is that with Chile, Argentina, and Brazil no longer competiting with one another, their naval buildups won't be as extensive, but I think overall the USSA would still build a formidable navy to counter the encroachement threats from the north, particulary in a rivlary against the USA. But instead of having one of two class here and there, I think the classes will be more uniform and homogenous. I wouldn't be suprised, if by the outbreak of war in 1914, that the USSA would have a standing fleet of at least ten dreadnoughts and ten pre-dreadnoughts, with a supporting fleet of eight light cruisers and twenty destroyers, and perhaps 5-10 submarines.
NoOneFamous		#5	[-]
Posts: 1355 (12-Jul-2008 02:11:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yep, US aligns with Germany, probably invades Mexico and the rest of Central America.
binder001	situational changes	#6	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 9 (14-Jul-2008 19:30:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	OK, the USSA forms circa 1850. Let's also say that they are too new to have any influence/effect on the American Civil War. What about the War with Spain in 1898? Would they be threatened by US interests in the Carribean? Would they side with Spain and block the US from action in Cuba? Those answers may affect who aligns with whom 20 years later. If the US is blocked at its first attempt to reach out to become a global player then US policies and politics will affect what we can do for Europe. The US could be similar to Russia, a frustrated, isolated giant. If the US becomes a player in the world, then would the USSA feel threatened by the developing industrial giant to their north? Then you may see each western power take an opposing side. If the US manages to have good relations with the South American state then the western hemisphere will be a powerful ally and would be courted by both sides of the "Old World". The USA and the USSA might just tell the continental powers to keep their little fracas on their side of the Atlantic and take a stance of neutrality as the US tried. With both North and South America allied the Zimmermann letter becomes a vaudeville joke instead of a serious threat and the US stays out. Britain and France are bled mercilessly on the Western Front with no significant help coming. Then you change the timeline entirely with a German Empire facing Bolshevik Russia. The Ottoman Empire gets a new lease on its tottering existence. France is a German vassal state and the British have been kicked out of Europe and must look to maintaining the Empire. Reset game and play on. Gary
flyingdutchman1980		#7	[-]
Posts: 111 (14-Jul-2008 23:04:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	binder001 wrote: OK, the USSA forms circa 1850. Let's also say that they are too new to have any influence/effect on the American Civil War. What about the War with Spain in 1898? Would they be threatened by US interests in the Carribean? Would they side with Spain and block the US from action in Cuba? Those answers may affect who aligns with whom 20 years later. If the US is blocked at its first attempt to reach out to become a global player then US policies and politics will affect what we can do for Europe. The US could be similar to Russia, a frustrated, isolated giant. If the US becomes a player in the world, then would the USSA feel threatened by the developing industrial giant to their north? Then you may see each western power take an opposing side. If the US manages to have good relations with the South American state then the western hemisphere will be a powerful ally and would be courted by both sides of the "Old World". The USA and the USSA might just tell the continental powers to keep their little fracas on their side of the Atlantic and take a stance of neutrality as the US tried. With both North and South America allied the Zimmermann letter becomes a vaudeville joke instead of a serious threat and the US stays out. Britain and France are bled mercilessly on the Western Front with no significant help coming. Then you change the timeline entirely with a German Empire facing Bolshevik Russia. The Ottoman Empire gets a new lease on its tottering existence. France is a German vassal state and the British have been kicked out of Europe and must look to maintaining the Empire. Reset game and play on. Gary If a South American union forms around 1850s I could also see them allying with America during the Spanish-American war against their former colonial oppressors in the Old World (read Spain and Portugal with the British, French and Dutch in the North). That would be most profitable to them. Even if all goes the best possible for your USSA, they'll be at most a regional power. I doubt they can project much power abroad. Maybe in WWI a contingent of South American soldiers on the Western Front. A bit like the Brazilians in Italy IRL during WWII, but then a bit bigger. If they join the Germans however and the USA still goes as in history, they'll eventually be defeated. They'll end up carved up like the Ottoman Empire. edit: spelling
P3D		#8	[-]
Posts: 844 (14-Jul-2008 23:15:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Too large distances, to small pop density, and hardly any communication lines/infrastructure to keep USSA together. Would definitely require a foreign power to support them initially (UK or USA). And the nation would still remain reliant on import of military equipment. Add local strongmen/military commanders revolting every 10 years against a central rule.
SeaTurtle Prince	language barrier	#9	[-]
Posts: 323 (21-Jul-2008 23:09:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Brazillians speak Portugese, so are not likely to join with the Spanish-speakers in the rest of your USSA (or more likely EUS: estados unidos de Sudamérica). Chile defeated Bolivia and Peru in the War of the Pacific around 1880. Perhaps in your scenario they all decide to get along instead, and co-opt Argentina and Uruguay as well, into EUS, with the intent to not be dwarfed by the Brazillians?
Doc Dynamo		#10	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 6 (22-Jul-2008 00:40:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	binder001 wrote: OK, the USSA forms circa 1850. Let's also say that they are too new to have any influence/effect on the American Civil War. What about the War with Spain in 1898? Would they be threatened by US interests in the Carribean? Would they side with Spain and block the US from action in Cuba? Those answers may affect who aligns with whom 20 years later. If the US is blocked at its first attempt to reach out to become a global player then US policies and politics will affect what we can do for Europe. The US could be similar to Russia, a frustrated, isolated giant. If the US becomes a player in the world, then would the USSA feel threatened by the developing industrial giant to their north? Then you may see each western power take an opposing side. If the US manages to have good relations with the South American state then the western hemisphere will be a powerful ally and would be courted by both sides of the "Old World". The USA and the USSA might just tell the continental powers to keep their little fracas on their side of the Atlantic and take a stance of neutrality as the US tried. With both North and South America allied the Zimmermann letter becomes a vaudeville joke instead of a serious threat and the US stays out. Britain and France are bled mercilessly on the Western Front with no significant help coming. Then you change the timeline entirely with a German Empire facing Bolshevik Russia. The Ottoman Empire gets a new lease on its tottering existence. France is a German vassal state and the British have been kicked out of Europe and must look to maintaining the Empire. Reset game and play on. Gary I think a USSA, composed mostly of countries which revolted against Spain, would be very unlikely to support Spain fighting to retain its Cuban colony. On the other hand, the existence of the USSA might mean that the US doesn't annex Puerto Rico.
theorist		#11	[-]
Posts: 453 (22-Jul-2008 17:20:06) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	flyingdutchman1890 is correct concerning EUS weaknesses - missing internal communications, langage, lack of a tradition of working federal government, etc.. My only comment beyond that is, Cuba would already be a US state in 1898, having been picked off by filibustering expeditions in whatever war of unification eventuated in the 1850 EUS. The slave interest wanted it badly as a slave state, and very nearly got it (R. E. Lee rejected the job of taking it with regrets). Could have delayed or speeded up the US Civil War without altering the outcome - after which, instead of throwing the French out of Mexico, there could have been an 1866 US-EUS war trying to reclaim Cuba which had - univaded - remained seceded and applied for membership in the EUS. Except that the EUS would, most likely, forbid slavery.

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Alt History Scenario Question - Pertains to Naval buildup

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