Fuel supplies Pearl Harbour 1941

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robdab		#41	[-]
Posts: 301 (23-May-2008 07:05:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	CD29, Many thanks for that source. A trained observer reporting an aircrash rather than a non-military observer reporting a suicide dive ?? I'd tend to believe the former rather than the latter. Does the author provide any more detail wrt the Japanese air attacks (or lack thereof) on the 99 Trincomalee oil tanks themselves ? I find it difficult to believe that the Kido Butai's pilots couldn't hit an oil storage tank if they were trying to and so believe that for some as yet unknown reason, they just didn't attack the oil tanks that day ? But some proof of that speculation would be a good thing fmpov.
Dolphinstriker		#42	[-]
Posts: 1851 (23-May-2008 16:15:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Does the author provide any more detail wrt the Japanese air attacks (or lack thereof) on the 99 Trincomalee oil tanks themselves ? I find it difficult to believe that the Kido Butai's pilots couldn't hit an oil storage tank if they were trying to and so believe that for some as yet unknown reason, they just didn't attack the oil tanks that day ? But some proof of that speculation would be a good thing fmpov. Believe what you want, and I know you will despite any and all evidence. The fact remains, Nagumo ordered the fuel tanks destroyed, dispatched his planes with that objective as part of their mission, with the result being that only one tank in a very extensive tank farm was destroyed. It is really immaterial whether that one tank was destroyed as a result of a deliberate suicide dive by a bomber or an uncontrolled crash by a damaged fighter. Nagumo's intent was clearly to destroy the RN's fuel reserve at Trincomlee, but whatever the reason, he wasn't able to realize that goal. Speculate all you want on the whys and wherefores, but this argues that the intent to destroy a tank farm does not equate to the actual destruction of said tank farm.
Creeping Death1929		#43	[-]
Posts: 1010 (27-May-2008 05:28:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Robdab wrote: CD29, Many thanks for that source. A trained observer reporting an aircrash rather than a non-military observer reporting a suicide dive ?? I'd tend to believe the former rather than the latter. Does the author provide any more detail wrt the Japanese air attacks (or lack thereof) on the 99 Trincomalee oil tanks themselves ? I find it difficult to believe that the Kido Butai's pilots couldn't hit an oil storage tank if they were trying to and so believe that for some as yet unknown reason, they just didn't attack the oil tanks that day ? But some proof of that speculation would be a good thing fmpov. According to Bloody Shambles, most of the 91 B5Ns attacked the harbor facilities while only part of them attacked the China Bay airfield. There were no D3As launched, as they were held in reserve in case the British Eastern fleet was detected. They were later launched at Hermes and the other ships with her when Haruna's floatplane detected Hermes. One Hiryu B5N was shot down and one force landed, there were no other losses to the bombers. There is no mention of the oil tanks being ordered to be attacked or being attacked other than Hiryu's fighters strafing them and claiming to set one on fire. Dolphinstriker wrote: Believe what you want, and I know you will despite any and all evidence. The fact remains, Nagumo ordered the fuel tanks destroyed, dispatched his planes with that objective as part of their mission, with the result being that only one tank in a very extensive tank farm was destroyed. It is really immaterial whether that one tank was destroyed as a result of a deliberate suicide dive by a bomber or an uncontrolled crash by a damaged fighter. Nagumo's intent was clearly to destroy the RN's fuel reserve at Trincomlee, but whatever the reason, he wasn't able to realize that goal. Speculate all you want on the whys and wherefores, but this argues that the intent to destroy a tank farm does not equate to the actual destruction of said tank farm. There is still the fact that 11 dive bombers managed to destroy 4 oil tanks and damage a fifth while also scoring a few hits on a merchant vessel and damaging a hangar and warehouse at the Dutch Harbor raid.
Glenn239		#44	[-]
Posts: 1073 (27-May-2008 18:41:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	There is still the fact that 11 dive bombers managed to destroy 4 oil tanks and damage a fifth while also scoring a few hits on a merchant vessel and damaging a hangar and warehouse at the Dutch Harbor raid. I would add that B5N2's destroyed from an altitude of 14,000 at least one and perhaps more large oil tanks at Port Darwin - there are pictures of the fire on pg 83 and 84 of Darwin, 1942. Additionally, this hit against the Diesel tanks at Wake, That evening Cunningham dutifully recounted the damage wreaked by the two Japanese raids on the 21st. He reported that the gun director had been destroyed, that only one four-gun 3" battery was effective, and that the power plant had been damaged and additional diesel fuel storage been hit and both buildings and equipment demolished. - Cressman, A Magnificent Fight 181
robdab	Bombing Oil Tanks	#45	[-]
Posts: 302 (27-May-2008 18:49:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	CD29, Thanks for that info from "Bloody Shambles". In addition to holding his Val's to await any spotting of Royal Navy units, I suspect (without any proof whatsoever) that perhaps Nagumo intended to send his Val's in as a second wave to attack Trincomalee's 99 oil tanks, after his Kates had bombed and thus suppressed any British fighters based on the surrounding airstrips there, if the Royal Navy didn't show up ? The Haruna floatplane's discovery of the carrier Hermes nearby would have cancelled that target attack priority very quickly for his second wave, I'd bet. Some brief google searching has also turned up references to successful Japanese bombing of oil tanks in and around Darwin, Australia on Feb.19'42, April 2'42, June 15-16'42 and March 15'43. Although the credits go to a wide mixture of Nells,. Bettys, Vals and Kates, without any real detailed specifics, it seems that high altitude level bombing, medium height level bombing and dive-bombing were all successful in hitting Australian oil tanks, just after the Pearl Harbor attacks. A nice photo of some of the burning tanks appears at http//cas.awm.gov.au/item/132532 and an "after photo" which can be seen at http//naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=8475092&SE=1 should forever dispel any notion that an oil tank might be quickly repaired/refilled after it has burnt itself out ... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Glenn239, I assume you refer to "Darwin:1942" by Timothy Hall ? Last Edited By: robdab 27-May-2008 20:04:12. Edited 1 times.
Dolphinstriker		#46	[-]
Posts: 1852 (30-May-2008 23:33:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	There is no mention of the oil tanks being ordered to be attacked or being attacked other than Hiryu's fighters strafing them and claiming to set one on fire. Dull specifically states that Nagumo ordered that the fuel tanks at Trincomlee be attacked and destroyed.
bager1968		#47	[-]
Posts: 2963 (31-May-2008 06:54:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	And did that order get to the commander of the strike aircraft? Or did the order get bumped down the priority list when Hermes was spotted... and they never got back to it?
Glenn239		#48	[-]
Posts: 1074 (31-May-2008 15:15:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dull specifically states that Nagumo ordered that the fuel tanks at Trincomlee be attacked Do you have a shred of evidence that even a single bomber attacked an oil tank at Trincomlee?
Dolphinstriker		#49	[-]
Posts: 1853 (31-May-2008 17:00:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Do you have a shred of evidence that even a single bomber attacked an oil tank at Trincomlee?. Yes, if you had bothered to read the newspaper account I posted, it said the bombers attacked the tanks but all the bombs missed. Do you have a shred of evidence they didn't attack the tanks? At any rate, it was, according to Dull, clearly Nagumo's intent that the tanks be destroyed and the vaunted Kido Butal failed to do so for whatever reason you want to conjure up. Similar conditions existed at Pearl Harbor; it's reasonable to assume that even if Nagumo had ordered the Pearl Harbor fuel tanks destroyed, a similar failure was possible, or even probable. Just as at Trincomlee, there were many other targets to distract the strike commanders. So, all your squirming and twisting as to the reasons the tanks at Trincomlee weren't destroyed aside, it is an example of fuel tanks left untouched by the strike planes even though the force commander held their destruction to be important.
Creeping Death1929		#50	[-]
Posts: 1015 ( 1-Jun-2008 03:48:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Actually Dull only states that Nagumo wanted it attacked at Colombo, not Trincomalee. Plus, your website isn't particularly accurate at all: "It is recorded that non of the planes and the air craft carrier which were instrumental for bombing Trincomalee never returned as all were destroyed by allied forces." "Ceylon RAF had only 20 planes against that of 120 planes of Mitsuo Fuchido. These 20 fighter planes got off from the race course grounds and there was an air battle over Colombo on the Easter Sunday morning 5.4.1942." There was well over 20 planes available to the RAF, as at Colombo alone there was 21 Hurricanes shot down, not to mention four Fulmars, and six Swordfish. There was also 14 Blenheims and six Catalinas. "Ceylon Garisson Artillery and boys of Royal Artillery managed to put down many of the Japanese Planes. " The Japanese lost 1 fighter and six bombers, all D3As, apparently by fighters at Colombo. At Trincomalee, there was three fighters lost and one bomber. One of the fighters was lost to AA. The dockyard installations that Nagumo ordered attacked were successfully attacked, by the dive bombers. Bloody shambles Vol II writes: "Harbour workshops at Colombo were seriously damaged ." Last Edited By: Creeping Death1929 1-Jun-2008 03:57:46. Edited 1 times.
Dolphinstriker		#51	[-]
Posts: 1854 ( 1-Jun-2008 17:06:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Actually Dull only states that Nagumo wanted it attacked at Colombo, not Trincomalee. Plus, your website isn't particularly accurate at all: "It is recorded that non of the planes and the air craft carrier which were instrumental for bombing Trincomalee never returned as all were destroyed by allied forces." Don't have my source available, but I believe Dull states that it was Nagumo's intention to destroy the RN's fuel supply "on Ceylon" and he so ordered. And yes, the report on the website errors as to the Japanese planes claimed as destroyed which is not unusual for war time sources. But I don't think anyone is claiming that the report is in error as to the number of fuel tanks destroyed.
Creeping Death1929		#52	[-]
Posts: 1016 ( 2-Jun-2008 00:49:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dull says in the section on the Colombo raid: "This time Admiral Nagumo emphasized to his airmen that they were not to make the mistake made at Pearl Harbor, but were to go after naval harbor installations and oil-tank farms, as well as ships." Bloody Shambles does say that they went after the harbor installations and ships at both Colombo and Trincomalee, causing a large amount of damage.
Dolphinstriker		#53	[-]
Posts: 1856 ( 2-Jun-2008 03:19:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'll have to wait until I can check my copy of Dull, but I seem to recall the implication that Nagumo's orders concerning fuel tanks applied to both Colombo and Trincomlee. In any event, it wouldn't make sense for him to order attacks on the tanks at Colombo but not those at Trincomlee.
jlyons97		#54	[-]
Posts: 1512 ( 2-Jun-2008 04:58:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	DS, There has been debate on the failure of Nagumo's troops to 'address' the fuel tanks at PH. Do we conclude from this debate that (1) he did not order attacks on the PH tanks, (2) post-attack analysis concluded that this was an unfortunate oversight and thus (3) future attacks on a fleet support facility must include such tanks as valid targets?
Glenn239		#55	[-]
Posts: 1075 ( 2-Jun-2008 18:26:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes, if you had bothered to read the newspaper account I posted, it said the bombers attacked the tanks but all the bombs missed. Do you have a shred of evidence they didn't attack the tanks? "Evidence" is from Japanese sources, not some newspaper article.
Dolphinstriker		#56	[-]
Posts: 1857 ( 2-Jun-2008 23:47:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"Evidence" is from Japanese sources, not some newspaper article. Where is that graven in stone?
Glenn239		#57	[-]
Posts: 1076 ( 3-Jun-2008 18:20:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Where is that graven in stone? Some newspaper guy is going to know what Japanese bombers were aiming at in the middle of an air raid? Did he interview the pilots? We've got plenty of examples posted here of Japanese aircraft aiming at and killing oil tanks. You've provided no evidence a single bomb was directed at oil tanks during the Indian Ocean raid.
Dolphinstriker		#58	[-]
Posts: 1858 ( 4-Jun-2008 06:02:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Some newspaper guy is going to know what Japanese bombers were aiming at in the middle of an air raid? Did he interview the pilots? We've got plenty of examples posted here of Japanese aircraft aiming at and killing oil tanks. You've provided no evidence a single bomb was directed at oil tanks during the Indian Ocean raid. You Wish! The newspaper report claims eyewitnesses saw the bombs falling wide of the oil tanks. Alright, that's possibly just some guys who thought that bombs were aimed at the tanks when they fell nearby, but then there's Nagumo's orders to destroy the fuel tanks, so we know it was the Japanese command's intent to destroy the fuel and the pilots, for whatever reason, didn't make it happen. You can twist the evidence anyway you want, but it still comes out that the pilots were ordered to destroy the tanks and they failed to do so. Yes, there are a few reliable reports of Japanese planes destroying a handful of fuel tanks elsewhere, but that doesn't prove that Kido Butai pilots could consistently destroy large numbers of fuel tanks whenever they were ordered to do so, especially in light of the evidence (which you so desperately wish to sweep under the rug) of the Trincomlee attack.
Creeping Death1929		#59	[-]
Posts: 1017 ( 5-Jun-2008 02:42:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The newspaper article claims the entire Japanese attacking force, planes, carriers and all was sunk or destroyed as well among other blatant errors and wild claims. Japan lost 18 aircraft during the entire Indian ocean raid. There was 1 A6M and 6 D3A lost at Colombo, 3 A6M and 1 B5N lost at Trincomalee with another B5N force landing near the ship. There was also 1 A6M lost when attacking the Blenheims as they attacked the Japanese fleet and another from the Hermes attacking force that encountered them as they were returning to the carriers. There was four D3A lost when attacking Hermes and other ships. It's interesting that you are still making the arguement that the Japanese would have a hard time destroying oil tanks when your only evidence is one error-riddled article that they actually dropped bombs on the tanks. It seems you are the one trying to sweep the evidence under the rug.
Dolphinstriker		#60	[-]
Posts: 1859 ( 5-Jun-2008 06:03:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The newspaper article claims the entire Japanese attacking force, planes, carriers and all was sunk or destroyed as well among other blatant errors and wild claims. Japan lost 18 aircraft during the entire Indian ocean raid. There was 1 A6M and 6 D3A lost at Colombo, 3 A6M and 1 B5N lost at Trincomalee with another B5N force landing near the ship. There was also 1 A6M lost when attacking the Blenheims as they attacked the Japanese fleet and another from the Hermes attacking force that encountered them as they were returning to the carriers. There was four D3A lost when attacking Hermes and other ships. It's interesting that you are still making the arguement that the Japanese would have a hard time destroying oil tanks when your only evidence is one error-riddled article that they actually dropped bombs on the tanks. It seems you are the one trying to sweep the evidence under the rug. No, I'm just pointing out that when the Japanese tried to destroy a tank farm at Trincomlee, they only managed to destroy one tank and that was only by a suicide dive. It's not unusual for war time reports to repeat the wildly inflated claims of one side or the other as to enemy losses. This happened repeatedly in otherwise accurate reports on all sides, so that doesn't necessarily invalidate the rest of the report. You should be well aware of that. Much as you would like to discredit the report, you have not shown any evidence that the Japanese were NOT ordered to destroy the tank farm, nor that more than one tank was, in fact, destroyed. So it stands to reason that the intent to destroy a tank farm does not automatically equate to the actual destruction of said tank farm.

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