I've wondered about this for a while. There does not seem to be an equivalent to the Bradley, Warrior and CV90 in Israeli service, though they do use M113s and tank based heavy APCs.
Do they know something the rest of us don't?
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JNiemczyk |
Why no IFVs in the IDF? |
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Posts: 6415 (27-May-2008 23:00:04) |
I've wondered about this for a while. There does not seem to be an equivalent to the Bradley, Warrior and CV90 in Israeli service, though they do use M113s and tank based heavy APCs. Do they know something the rest of us don't? |
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tassilo27 |
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Posts: 100 (27-May-2008 23:20:26) |
The Merkava Mk3/Mk4 carries up to eight soldiers in addition to the vehicle crew. There is simply no need to build a separate IFV when your MBT performs that
function already. M113s and heavier APCs I would think would be better for operations in the Occupied Territories rather than staring down Syrian armored
divisions anyways.
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/MerkavaMk4.html |
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JNiemczyk |
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Posts: 6417 (27-May-2008 23:42:21) |
That's probably why, though I had read that the space in the rear of the various versions of the Merkava was more used for ease of ammunition supply than
as space for infantrymen. Would I be right in thinking that the previous versions of the tank did not have near as much space in the rear as the Mk.4?
Last Edited By: JNiemczyk
27-May-2008 23:44:35.
Edited 1 times.
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Dave AAA |
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Posts: 5398 (30-May-2008 18:59:32) |
The Merkava Mk3/Mk4 carries up to eight soldiers
You can fit a bailed out tank crew - two if they're REALLY friendly - which was one of the aims of this design. That can only be done by removing stowed ammunition. The Merkava 3 has a bit more space, but it still isn't an IFV by any means. The IFV issue was debated within the Canadian Army back in the seventies and eighties. One argument brought up was that Israel didn't like the concept. They felt that if one wanted to make a mounted attack, one used tanks. If one needed a dismounted attack, the infantry still need to get out of their IFV's or carriers. Even today, Israel prefers to develop well armoured tank-based machine-gun armed heavy APC's rather than cannon armed IFV's. |
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Bunker Foesinger |
another point | ||
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Posts: 88 ( 1-Jun-2008 19:06:12) |
Those MBT-based APCs are converts of old and/or captured tanks. Updating them in the MBT role was not really sensible, so they came up with the APC-conversion
which is a rather cost-effective solution.
Best Regards Ralph |
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Mark F |
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Posts: 2382 ( 1-Jun-2008 22:46:41) |
Because the IDF does not now and never has bought into the IFV concept. The standard APC of the IDF for decades has been the M113. Experience in Lebanon in
1982 however convinced the IDF that these vehicles should not be used within range of enemy weapons - sorry Gavin-lovers. This has led to a substantial
conversion program to turn obsolete MBT's that are surplus to requirements into heavily armored APC's that can withstand fire from enemy infantry
anti-armor weapons while moving troops on to the objective. The typical IDF armament of multiple machine guns covering a full 360-deg arc around the vehicle
is more than adequate for the suppression of these weapons as the vehicles advance.
PS They do not routinely use the Merkava MBT to transport troops. In emergencies it can evacuate wounded in a combat zone but it is no infantry carrier by any means. Not only is there no room for the mens kit, they have no way of seeing out of the vehicle to assess the tactical situation. |
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miketr |
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Posts: 2936 ( 2-Jun-2008 09:28:27) |
I read that part of the Merkava concept is crew survival as a top priority. Hence stuff like the engine being front on the vehicle. The IDF noted in 67 and
73 while many takes would be knocked out the damage a good chunk of the time didn't destroy the tank. Given a few hours/day or weeks it could be back in
action but once the crew was dead that was it. With the engine forward to put more metal between the crew and incoming shots it freed up the rear of the
vehicle and provided an easier point of escape. Also as already noted it allowed crews from other knocked out tanks a place to take shelter on the
battlefield. The same logic applies to the lack of lightly armored APC's in the IDF; a strong desire for crew survival.
Michael |
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borys68 |
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Posts: 2580 ( 6-Jun-2008 20:05:54) |
Ahoj!
IDF is introducing a new heavy APC based on the Merkava chassis, called Tigre (or Tigress) in Hebrew. Borys |
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JNiemczyk |
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Posts: 6459 ( 6-Jun-2008 20:57:03) |
Because the IDF does not now and never has bought into the IFV concept.
I wonder why that is, every other major, and indeed many minor armies, have IFVs. Their potential opponents in the region also have IFVs, even if they tend to be BMPs. |
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Mark F |
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Posts: 2383 ( 7-Jun-2008 00:49:00) |
Because the way the IDF fights is not the way the Cold War hordes were planning to go about it in central Europe where every vehicle it seems had to be able to
kill a tank, and maybe carry a few infantry when it had the time.
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Andy L |
Israel's APC requirements | ||
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Posts: 2822 (12-Aug-2008 15:15:20) |
Because the way the IDF fights is not the way the Cold War hordes were planning to go about it in central Europe where every vehicle it seems had to be able to kill a tank, and maybe carry a few infantry when it had the time. NATO IFVs were never intended to be tank killers. The rationale behind the Soviet BMP was to allow the
infantry to fight from within an armoured vehicle on a nulcear battlefield; the 73mm low-pressure gun was simply for suppreesive fire, indeed its wild
inaccuracy at anything other than point-blank ranges precluded little else.
Your Text Signature ...
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Dave Bender |
Cost involved in designing, building and manning | ||
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Posts: 6917 (13-Aug-2008 03:13:43) |
I suspect this is the real reason. Israel is a small nation that must defend against a much larger enemy force. They cannot afford everything that would be
nice to have. IFVs were low on the priority list so they got cut.
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