Great War: Next Naval Battle (discussion)

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miketr	Great War: Next Naval Battle (discussion)	Lead	[-]
Posts: 2922 (16-May-2008 18:52:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Now that I am back to writting my time line I am working on OOB's for the next fight. I had planned on the next battle to occur in August / September 1915 as that would give the Germans enough time to repair all of their damage, make changes and get some new construction. Problem is after I played around with the finish dates of new construction (to cover time spent on repairs from the last battle) and factored in losses the Germans GTB screen is rather weak. Weaker than I had first figured it would be. 1st TBF V186/G192 classes (11) 2nd TBF S138 class (6) / SV150 (6) 3rd TBF V1/G7 classes (5) / S13 Class (4) 4th TBF G169/G174/S176/V180 classes (11) 5th TBF V25/S30 classes (12) Total GTB 55 Ready but not in any formation Torpedobootzerstörer B97, B98 & V99 Not available to cover yard time Großes Torpedoboot 1906 V163, V164, S165, S166, S167 & S168 The rest of the German screen looks like this 1st Scouting Group Vice-Admiral Maximilian von Spee SMS Seydlitz SMS Moltke SMS Derfflinger (Flag) SMS Von der Tann 2nd Scouting Group Konteradmiral Franz Hipper SMS Blucher SMS Scharnhorst SMS Gniesenau (Flag) 3rd Scouting Group Konteradmiral Leberecht Maaß SMS Ersatz Emden II (Karlsruhe Class laid down 1912) (finished w/ 150mm guns) SMS Graudenz (rearmed w/ 150mm guns) SMS Regensburg (rearmed w/ 150mm guns) SMS Pillau 4th Scouting Group Konteradmiral Georg Hebbinghaus SMS Rostock SMS Straßburg SMS Stralsund SMS Kiel (Magdeburg Class laid down 1911) 5th Scouting Group Konteradmiral Friedrich Boedicker SMS Chemnitz (Kolberg class laid down 1910) SMS Aachen (Kolberg Class laid down 1909) SMS Essen (Kolberg Class laid down 1908) SMS Augsburg 6th Scouting Group Kommodore Karl von Restorff SMS Köln SMS Mainz SMS Kolberg SMS Stettin 7th Scouting Group Kommodore Ludwig von Reuter SMS Stuttgart SMS Nuremburg SMS Hamburg SMS Leipzig SMS Danzig Now if the Germans wait till December they get the following; they think. Lützow (I have no reason to change the date for when the Turbines are fixed so she really won't be ready till March of 1916 but the Germans don't know that) 4 more CL's all armed with 150mm guns SMS Wiesbaden SMS Frankfurt SMS Ersatz Karlsruhe II (Wiesbaden Class laid down 1913) SMS Elbing 2 more CL's could be converted to 150mm weapons in that time period also. 9 more GTB's 1913 & 4 more Torpedobootzerstörer 6 months after December even more construction of all types but the Germans KNOW the RN gets a bunch of stuff too and that they loose the current parity of DN types that they have right now. Tirpitz would put to sea with 18 DN's (2 with 350mm guns) and 9 PDN's. So the question is do the Germans go looking for a fight in September 1915 or wait till December 1915 so they get another two Torpedo Boat Forces? I am leaning towards risking the fight in September. Also any suggestions for sources on British light construction? CL and DD for the great war? I have a fairly good idea but I wanted to check some thoughts. Michael
W D Martin		#1	[-]
Posts: 631 (17-May-2008 05:22:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Were it me, I would go for it rather than wait. Do the Germans know the apporximate build rates of the RN? I would imagine they do (I am guessing on this)and will opt to take the advantage in large ship numbers they currently enjoy rather than wait. Later, Bill Your Text Signature ...
miketr		#2	[-]
Posts: 2923 (17-May-2008 09:54:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Germans know what the British were building up till the UK's entry into the war in late of 1914 (early December). The Germans have a general idea whats gone on since then. My thought is that the Germans can risk one battle and even if it pays off their GTB force is spent till spring of 1916 when they get their new construction. Which would be 29 GTB-1913 & have 7 Torpedobootzerstörer. Beyond that would depend on how much battle damage the Germans have to repair as I figured that their burst of repair and modifications cost the Germans to loose about 3 months on things; plus I canned the 150 ton Flanders TB's and put in another 8 Torpedobootzerstörer. If the GTB force is really chopped up again, I might have to consider making other changes to the Germans build rates for the larger stuff. Thanks for the thoughts Bill. Michael
moltke1	German Fleet	#3	[-]
Posts: 488 (17-May-2008 12:19:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi Mike, Derfflinger never really had have any Flagship facilities. Seydlitz or Moltke does have them, as the late Luetzow. LT is an obvious difference. The Sip is Nürnberg. I think you still ahev to explain why the German Fleet ist that strong in cruisers and why Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are with the scouting units. I think I am missing he complete picture. Best reagrds Uwe
miketr		#4	[-]
Posts: 2924 (17-May-2008 14:11:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Von Spee made it home in very late 1914. Tirpitz ordered him home at the start of the war. With the UK neutral von Spee took a more direct route across the Pacific and used the Panama Canal. Reading on von Spee's voyage he would at times take very long stops, some were for rest time for his crews others were to avoid enemy action. He was mid atlantic with a number of merchentmen when the UK enterd the war. One of his CL's was detached to act as a distraction, Emden was still in the Pacific and Indian Oceans shooting up French and Russian shipping and Spee slipped in. There wasn't enough time to slot von Spee into Hippers place so he stayed with his AC's for the battle of Dogger Bank. As to the extra small cruisers... 1906 June 5, Third Naval Law passed, number of large cruisers for Foreign Service increased by 5 ships, Material Reserve by 1 ship. 1912 Febuary At the same time Tirpitz wants to add an additional Battle squadron to the fleet, maintaining the current three battleship per year building tempo, more small cruisers, more large torpedo boats and larger crews to allow for more of the fleet, large torpedo boats in particular, to be kept at war readiness in peace time. Tirpitz felt that the fall from power of Goltz means that he can push through his naval bill at the expense of the armies own plan. Between 1907 and the start of the war the Germans laid down an extra small cruiser each year; thats 8 extra cruisers in service or in the system. This caused the Australian and Canadians to be pressured to spend more on naval matters. A really big effect of the 1912 Naval laws plays out in 1913, more on that to follow. Von Spee getting home adds two more CL's to the Germans total. I butterflied away the Battle of Heligoland Bight or an analog so thats 3 more. So we have a delta of 13 CL's over historic; of the 8 results in a like number of extra common wealth and RN cruisers; not named but they are in my notes. As to Nuremberg vs. Nürnberg; no idea why I had the english spelling but I will correct it in my notes thanks for the catch. I will switch Von Spee's flag to one of the other BC's; thanks for pointing that one out also. Michael
TomB1	My vote	#5	[-]
Posts: 92 (17-May-2008 18:41:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I will cast my vote for the Sept sortie as well.
miketr		#6	[-]
Posts: 2926 (19-May-2008 19:29:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I am attempting to work on the RN order of battle. Right now it looks like the GF will have 20 Dreadnought battleships & 10 PDNs; 3 of them QE's. HMS Warspite HMS Queen Elizabeth HMS Barham Do I attach the QE's to the main body or attach them to the battle cruiser force? Michael
borys68		#7	[-]
Posts: 2565 (19-May-2008 20:52:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To the Battlecruisers. That was their purpose, no? Borys
miketr		#8	[-]
Posts: 2927 (19-May-2008 22:22:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes BUT they are also the only 15" gunned BB's in RN service as of the battle. Michael
PhilJD	QE's	#9	[-]
Posts: 622 (20-May-2008 13:08:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Small lead squadron, their purpose is not to be with the battlecruisers but to act as a fast squadron with the main fleet (obviously until sufficient come on board so that the fleet itself is 'fast'). The BC's are still 'only' a scouting force - where the 'in the line of battle' almost myth comes from is really weird, as they never formed part of the line of battle. Regards Phil
miketr		#10	[-]
Posts: 2928 (20-May-2008 18:30:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hey Phil, My understanding is that at Jutland for example that Evan-Thomas QE's were tactically part of Beatty's Battle Cruiser Force and not part of the main body. Michael

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Great War: Next Naval Battle (discussion)

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