P-40 vs FW190

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emc	P-40 vs FW190	Lead	[-]
Posts: 3753 (15-May-2008 01:43:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I've been reading Rick Atkinson's Liberation Trilogy, and just completed the second book in the series (Day of Battle), there's mention of the 99th Fighter Squadron, still flying P-40's, downing several FW190's without loss. I'm sure that those Luftwaffe pilots were triply unhappy: being shot down, by obsolescent aircraft, flown by African-Americans.
bager1968		#1	[-]
Posts: 2933 (15-May-2008 07:07:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Tuskegee Airmen (the black USAAF pilots) were perhaps the most disciplined and proficient fighter pilots in the US military. Every pilot was always covered by others, and no one did any solo showboating, glory-hound stuff... they were totally focused on doing their job better than anyone else... and their results showed this very plainly. they had to be, for the USAAF to even admit they were "adequately qualified" for combat duties.
emc		#2	[-]
Posts: 3756 (15-May-2008 12:12:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	bager168 said: The Tuskegee Airmen (the black USAAF pilots) were perhaps the most disciplined and proficient fighter pilots in the US military. Every pilot was always covered by others, and no one did any solo showboating, glory-hound stuff... they were totally focused on doing their job better than anyone else... and their results showed this very plainly. they had to be, for the USAAF to even admit they were "adequately qualified" for combat duties. Very true; getting them into airplanes was probably one of the biggest bureaucratic battles of the era. Considering how well the Tuskegee Airmen did, there should have been a lot of very red faces among the people who fought to keep them out of airplanes. Racists don't tend to be bright enough to notice they're wrong.
seasick	The P-40's Revenge	#3	[-]
Posts: 4661 (15-May-2008 18:37:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The greater portion of Soviet aces in WW2 flew P-40. Theoretical obsolescence some times buts heads with operational effectiveness. The P-40 was a good design and it held up longer than many anticipated.
Dave Bender	Shot down by obsolescent aircraft	#4	[-]
Posts: 6493 (15-May-2008 19:15:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Philippine Army Air Corps scored several kills with P-26s during December 1941. Obsolescent IJN A6Ms (Zero) and IJA Ki-43s (Oscar) were still getting kills in 1945. Gen Lettow-Vorbeck scored a huge victory over a British force 8 times his size at Tanga and while armed with obsolete black powder rifles. Superior equipment and greater numbers do not guarantee victory. It just tilts the odds in your favor.
emc		#5	[-]
Posts: 3761 (15-May-2008 20:11:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dave Bender wrote: The Philippine Army Air Corps scored several kills with P-26s during December 1941. Obsolescent IJN A6Ms (Zero) and IJA Ki-43s (Oscar) were still getting kills in 1945. Gen Lettow-Vorbeck scored a huge victory over a British force 8 times his size at Tanga and while armed with obsolete black powder rifles. Superior equipment and greater numbers do not guarantee victory. It just tilts the odds in your favor. I also tend to think that the P-40 -- especially because of its reputed very sweet handling -- was a much better aircraft than raw top speed or rate of climb numbers indicate.
jlyons97		#6	[-]
Posts: 1484 (15-May-2008 21:39:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	emc wrote: Dave Bender wrote: The Philippine Army Air Corps scored several kills with P-26s during December 1941. Obsolescent IJN A6Ms (Zero) and IJA Ki-43s (Oscar) were still getting kills in 1945. Gen Lettow-Vorbeck scored a huge victory over a British force 8 times his size at Tanga and while armed with obsolete black powder rifles. Superior equipment and greater numbers do not guarantee victory. It just tilts the odds in your favor. I also tend to think that the P-40 -- especially because of its reputed very sweet handling -- was a much better aircraft than raw top speed or rate of climb numbers indicate. "We would stooge around and wait to get bounced, depending on our turning ability to offset the superior characteristics of the Me-109 and FW-190.......They had tried to stay with the P-40 in a turn, which was silly, instead of using the dive and zoom tactics which gave us so much trouble." This taken from some accounts of the 325th FG Checkertails, one of the most successful P-40 groups. Some of these stories relate kill claims that may not survive close examination, like most fighter pilots. But the point is, they THOUGHT they were good, knew their airplanes, and in no way underestimated their opponents.
JBren1		#7	[-]
Posts: 198 (15-May-2008 22:45:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dave Bender wrote: The Philippine Army Air Corps scored several kills with P-26s during December 1941. Obsolescent IJN A6Ms (Zero) and IJA Ki-43s (Oscar) were still getting kills in 1945. P-26's didn't score any kills against Japanese fighters that check out in Japanese accounts; 1 of their claims v a bomber does check out, but the fighters ones don't. Which is one point to consider about the 99th FS story, what particular day, and what was the German unit's account of the combat? WWII air combats usually didn't look the same from both sides. Older Japanese fighters came out on top in some combats in 1945, that's true, and the general point is true: a better plane improves your odds but doesn't gtee victory unless the performance gap is much bigger than the gap between a P-40 and an FW190. Joe
Dave Bender	Stooge around and wait to get bounced	#8	[-]
Posts: 6495 (16-May-2008 02:27:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That is a tactic of desparation. Especially against the Fw-190A. You better hope the Fw doesn't get his 4 x 20mm cannons on target during the initial firing pass.
seasick		#9	[-]
Posts: 4664 (16-May-2008 03:47:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Stooge around and wait to get bounced That is a tactic of desperation. When people are trying to kill you, your in that area frequently. Then again they were successful and the P-40 was at a disadvantage in certain respects, but could out turn the opponent. The Luftwaffel tried to beat the P-40 on its strong point rather than use their aircrafts advantages.
CliffS		#10	[-]
Posts: 513 (16-May-2008 06:15:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	seasick wrote: Stooge around and wait to get bounced That is a tactic of desperation. When people are trying to kill you, your in that area frequently. Then again they were successful and the P-40 was at a disadvantage in certain respects, but could out turn the opponent. The Luftwaffel tried to beat the P-40 on its strong point rather than use their aircrafts advantages. I think by that stage of the war, attrition had accounted for a lot of the experienced pilots in the Luftwaffe (as in the Japanese Air Forces). Regardless of the quality of the mounts, the riders were young and inexperienced - and often didn't live long enough to gain that vital experience. None of which is to detract from the achievements of the Tuskegee Airmen, who by all accounts were superbly skilled and disciplined flyers. Cheers, Cliff

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P-40 vs FW190

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