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danmac1	Canadian Defence announcement	Lead	[-]
Posts: 17 (13-May-2008 04:20:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	From today's Globe and Mail (globeandmail.com) Prime Minister Stephen Harper has announced a 20-year, $30-billion renewal of the Canadian Forces in a broad plan that coalesces several previously announced defence initiatives. The government wants to expand the regular troop force of about 65,000 to 70,000, and to add another 6,000 reservists to the current total of about 24,000. Six of the Canadian Forces' core equipment fleets will be replaced over the next 20 years, including destroyers, frigates, aircraft, fighter planes and land combat vehicles. Many of those procurements have been under way for a few years. I have a few questions. 1/ What does this mean for the Future Surface Combatant? ( a sort of FREMM-like 'one hull does all' that would replace our DDG's and frigates ) I've heard nothing on this for months, and with the Halifax mid-lfe refits, and the DDG's reaching 35 years of age.. has this program been split to first replace the destroyers? 2/ There's no mention of submarines. Should we read anything into this? One could say that refit programs are already underway. Yet the same is going on with the frigates, and the government has announced its intention to replace these ships. Thoughts? Sincerely, danmac1
Obi Wan Russell		#1	[-]
Posts: 207 (13-May-2008 10:47:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Still time for Canada to place an order for Type 45s.... with mk41 launchers of course! And how about a follow on order of Merlins to replace those venerable Sea Kings? So old their maintenance records are in latin! (from a Canadian friend of mine) It would be a start anyway. The Canadians already operate the SAR version of the Merlin so a degree of commonality could be achieved. We could build the T45 hulls in the UK and have them fitted out in Canadian yards, keeping build costs down and providing work locally. 4-6 ships would kick start the program nicely...
ramtank2		#2	[-]
Posts: 331 (13-May-2008 12:13:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Chronicle Herald reports, 15 new warships to replace current destroyer's and frigate's, 65 aircraft to replace F-18's, 10-12 aircraft for search and rescue.
BenRoethig		#3	[-]
Posts: 1771 (13-May-2008 15:22:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Canadians had a very bad experience with the CH-149. That's why they pretty much signed a contract with sikzorsky before the an ASW version of the s92 even existed. To be honest, after the CH-139 and the SSKs, I wouldn't be expecting any Canadian orders for British weapon systems any time soon. What they actually order could be a mystery though unless they cancel the Cyclone and order either the Seahawk or NH90 in its place. very few ships can house a medium duty helicopter and I doubt Ottawa will spend the money to design something indigenous. Last Edited By: BenRoethig 13-May-2008 15:25:01. Edited 1 times.
danmac1		#4	[-]
Posts: 18 (14-May-2008 03:59:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Our experience has't been too great with the new Sikorsky bird either. Latest media reports say the company wants an additional $500 million above the contracted price, and admits the first chopper will be months behind schedule. My concern right now is with the DDG's. Even with TRUMP, the basic fact is that we're dealing with 35 year old hulls. When we had the old St. Laurents and Restigouche classes, major deck cracking, sprung plates and sheered rivets became a real problem for a time. Even if -- just as a 'let's say' -- the Conservatives signed a contract tomorrow for a trio of new Type 45's, or F100's.. or anything else.. the fact is we probably wouldn't have a ship arrive in Halifax until 2014.. by which time the Iroquois and her remaining sisters will have celebrated their -- ahem -- 42nd birthdays.
drunknsubmrnr		#5	[-]
Posts: 1341 (14-May-2008 16:02:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	There's a Destroyer Replacement Program on the books. Theoretically it's supposed to be announced and funded by the end of 2008. It's the "official" program to replace the TRUMPS, and was split off from the Single Class Surface Combatant program that will replace both the TRUMPS and CPF's. The remaining TRUMPS are currently projected to pay off in 2012-2013. If DRP isn't announced this year, you're probably looking at the TRUMPS paying off without replacement and their crews going towards manning the new Arctic Offshore Patrol Ships. The submarines will probably be paid off in somewhere towards 2015-ish without replacement. There aren't any moves towards even getting them combat effective at this point, let alone replacing them.
CVA02		#6	[-]
Posts: 387 (14-May-2008 19:02:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Obi Wan Russell wrote: Still time for Canada to place an order for Type 45s.... with mk41 launchers of course! And how about a follow on order of Merlins to replace those venerable Sea Kings? So old their maintenance records are in latin! (from a Canadian friend of mine) It would be a start anyway. The Canadians already operate the SAR version of the Merlin so a degree of commonality could be achieved. We could build the T45 hulls in the UK and have them fitted out in Canadian yards, keeping build costs down and providing work locally. 4-6 ships would kick start the program nicely... The Type 45 would seem to be an unlikely contender due to the current program delays, over-runs, unit total reductions - not to mention very recent memories of the Type 2400 submarine fiasco. In any case, the Type 45 looks certain to suffer from premature obsolescence due to its use of the largely unsold WR-21 gas turbine and the PAAMS weapon's system, which is unlikely to ever be updated and lacks any potential for anti-ballistic missile capability. If time is of the essence, Canada should consider the Burke Class from Bath Iron Works, which would at least (hypothetically) allow the use of Canadian labor in an American shipyard - not to mention that advantageous weakness of the American dollar. These days, the Burke class looks enviably cheap on a per unit-basis, along with the additional advantage of built-in upgradability for missile defense. Harper could brag about bringing in a defense program for under budget, while bringing jobs to the maritime provinces and providing for the future missile defense. In contrast, the Type 45 offers a unique opportunity for a political embarrassment from day one, long before the mess even starts.
drunknsubmrnr		#7	[-]
Posts: 1342 (14-May-2008 20:10:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	We couldn't afford to man Burkes even if they were free. We're pretty much committed to APAR and SM-2 for any future builds, ruling Type 45 out. If we buy off the shelf, we're limited to the Dutch and German AAW frigates.
danmac1		#8	[-]
Posts: 19 (14-May-2008 20:22:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	More on the Cyclone saga: From Wednesday's Globe and Mail May 14, 2008 at 4:34 AM EDT OTTAWA - Ottawa is holding on to more than $200-million in planned payments to Sikorsky Inc., as tensions grow between the Harper government and the U.S.-based company that is running late in replacing the 40-year-old Sea Kings, sources say. A senior official said federal payments to Sikorsky have so far totalled $700-million, but the helicopter maker has failed to meet milestones that would have allowed it to collect another $200-million. Industry officials said the problem has trickled down into the private sector, with a number of subcontractors on the $5-billion project awaiting payments from Sikorsky for finished work.
Bledlow		#9	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 62 (14-May-2008 22:32:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	CVA02 wrote: Obi Wan Russell wrote: Still time for Canada to place an order for Type 45s.... with mk41 launchers of course! And how about a follow on order of Merlins to replace those venerable Sea Kings? So old their maintenance records are in latin! (from a Canadian friend of mine) It would be a start anyway. The Canadians already operate the SAR version of the Merlin so a degree of commonality could be achieved. We could build the T45 hulls in the UK and have them fitted out in Canadian yards, keeping build costs down and providing work locally. 4-6 ships would kick start the program nicely... The Type 45 would seem to be an unlikely contender due to the current program delays, over-runs, unit total reductions - not to mention very recent memories of the Type 2400 submarine fiasco. In any case, the Type 45 looks certain to suffer from premature obsolescence due to its use of the largely unsold WR-21 gas turbine and the PAAMS weapon's system, which is unlikely to ever be updated and lacks any potential for anti-ballistic missile capability. ... Your prejudices are showing again. Just to pick one of your errors - PAAMS most definitely does not lack any potential for ABM capability. SAMP/T comes with an ATBM capability built in, & both it and PAAMS can accept upgrades. SMART-L (basically the same radar as S1850) has proved it can track ballistic missiles, with a minor - and already developed - upgrade. Etc. There is sufficient public domain information, which you choose to ignore, to prove that your oddly confident statement is false. Last Edited By: Bledlow 15-May-2008 00:40:07. Edited 2 times.
danmac1		#10	[-]
Posts: 20 (14-May-2008 23:52:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	And there's more: HALIFAX -- The Air Force is studying whether the lifespan of its fleet of 40-year-old Sea King helicopters can be extended again. The original retirement date for the aging choppers had been set at 2012, but delivery of replacement Sikorsky helicopters could be delayed. Defence Department spokeswoman Elizabeth Hodges says the process has begun to possibly operate the fleet beyond 2012. Sikorsky Incorporated was slated to begin delivering 28 CH-148 Cyclones in January. But the federal government and Sikorsky are in talks over a possible delay in the delivery of the Cyclone fleet. There have been media reports indicating Ottawa has considered cancelling the original 5.8 (b) billion dollar deal. Hodges says there are no firm decisions yet as the department has just started looking at the Sea Kings now. Sikorsky was originally scheduled to deliver the new helicopters by the end of November 2008. That deadline was later moved to January 2009. Sikorsky spokesman Paul Jackson would not comment on the status of the talks in Ottawa between his company and the Public Works Department. (The Canadian Press)

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