What you told us is already very interesting !
I hope you'll be able to offer us some more, but if you can't, no problem (we all have a "true life").
Frank (for the french FFO team)
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 Casus Frankie |
To Guilherme | ||
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Posts: 52 ( 7-May-2008 18:18:19) |
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MarkLBailey |
Guilherme | ||
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Posts: 2270 ( 8-May-2008 10:26:56) |
Regarding destroyers, the Brazilian Navy was starved for them. The Brazilian government had tried in the late 30's(1936-7, IIRC) to buy 6 4-pipers from the US. Argentinian diplomacy blocked these efforts. A new offer of 4-pipers would be accepted by Brazil, IMO(historically Brazil received DEs and SC/PCs from the US). Brazil had trouble replacing the 1910-vintage destroyers(more like torpedo boats); only 3 Mahan class-DDs were completed before the end of the war.Thanks, Guilherme, this agrees with other material. That means we can start the process of transferring 6 of these ships BEFORE Brazil enters the war, during the period of friendly neutrality. Minas Gerais could be refitted in the US, she was the battleship in best condition, having received a minor refit in the 30's(some work done in her engines, as well as reduction of the secondary armament, IIRC). São Paulo wasn't in great condition, and probably wouldn't be cost-effective to refit. Historically, both battleships spend WWII as guardships moored at Recife(Minas Gerais), and Salvador(São Paulo). Protecting MULBERRY is as good a fate as any for São Paulo.The Minas Gerias modernisation in the 30s was fairly extensive. It gives an excellent basis for a further upgrade. By WWII standards she is small and very old, but all the data I have indicates that she was well maintained. In FFO, the USA has a bit more refit and repair capacity. So a few months in a US yard could see her machinery fully overhauled, boilers retubed and AA upgraded. With the wing turrets she has very little centreline space, but for Mediterranean service 40mm can be added to bow and stern and she can get a very good director. Submarines: Brazil had 4 of them, all of Italian design: Humaitá, which my Bagnasco copy lists as being 'very similar to the Balilla class', and three Adua class 600T submarines, Tupi, Tamoio and Timbira. I wouldn't send them to the Mediterranean, if only for the fact they would be mistaken for her Italian counterparts.Good point, and they would not be designed for the cold waters of the North Sea and Norwegian coast. Would it be possible for them to be sent, with a Brazilian depot ship, to the Andaman Islands? These small subs might be quite useful in the approaches to the Malacca strait and in the Mergui archipelago. Tropical waters, for which I suspect they would be suitable. Sending a bombardment squadron to the Mediterranean could be done, I think. The greatest problem in an earlier Army and Air Force commitment is that Brazil's armed forces were woefully unprepared for war. It took two years for Brazil to send a single division and a single fighter squadron to war, and by then their contribution was welcome, but it didn't have the impact it could have had they been available earlier. That happened beacause they had to be trained virtually from scratch. The Navy may have been slightly better prepared, but due to her scarce means couldn't do much more than being a coastal defence force. I think this problem could be solved, but a higher priority than historical to bringing the Brazilian armed forces up to date needs to be set.THis is covered in an article I posted on the FFO board. In FFO, there is both more need earlier and more equipment available. However, much of it is not first rate. Would the Brazilian Air Force be willing to accept B-18 bombers, P-40 fighters and other such older types? As for the Army, I noticed that it was actually raised on a French regimental model. In FFO, the sheer number of smaller Allies has meant the development of quite a substantial system for training and developing their abilities. For example, 150,000 Belgian troops were evacuated from Europe. The French had a massive training problem in North Africa. All of that has been done and set up, and most of the men trained, just as Brazil enters the war. If the Brazilian government is willing to walk before its can run, then training and developing Brazilian infantry brigades can actually start quickly. Obviously, things take time, but in FFO the development of experience and command-and-control up to Corps level might even be possible. Certainly, division level would be reached so that the Army could effectively use and fight at the divisional level by the end of the war. Again, there are stocks of older equipment (Valentine and Lee tanks etc) which can be used quite quickly in FFO. As for contributing to FFO, I won't know whether or not I can until next month. I once promised to help Brad Smith on his Arcadia story(about whether the Brazilian Army could be used for operations earlier than historical), and wasn't able to do it. I don't wish to promise any sort of commitment and renege on the deal again. Fair enough! The interesting things about FFO is that contributions do NOT have to be big. Even just single paragraphs describing how the Brazilian military and political situation is developing would be very useful in the narrative. They could simply be added to Fantastiques timelines. We are extremely flexible, and we have no Brazilian FFO member! Do you want access to the FFO website, so you can look around? If so, contact me at markDOTbaileyATbigpondDOTcom. Cheers: Mark |
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Guilherme Loureiro |
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Posts: 170 ( 8-May-2008 14:12:48) |
Thanks, Guilherme, this agrees with other material. That means we can start the process of transferring 6 of these ships BEFORE Brazil enters the war, during the period of friendly neutrality.That would be 1940-41, right? I'm supposing Brazil enters the war at about the same time as historical, but I don't remember if that's the case in FFO. The Minas Gerias modernisation in the 30s was fairly extensive. It gives an excellent basis for a further upgrade. By WWII standards she is small and very old, but all the data I have indicates that she was well maintained. In FFO, the USA has a bit more refit and repair capacity. So a few months in a US yard could see her machinery fully overhauled, boilers retubed and AA upgraded. With the wing turrets she has very little centreline space, but for Mediterranean service 40mm can be added to bow and stern and she can get a very good director.It's a pity Brazil decided to go for VTE engines instead of turbines for São Paulo and Minas Gerais, although it's certainly understandable given the fact these ships were purchased at about the same time as Dreadnought was being built. If they had turbines, I think more could be done to them in refits. Good point, and they would not be designed for the cold waters of the North Sea and Norwegian coast. Would it be possible for them to be sent, with a Brazilian depot ship, to the Andaman Islands? These small subs might be quite useful in the approaches to the Malacca strait and in the Mergui archipelago. Tropical waters, for which I suspect they would be suitable.I see no reason why not; in fact I think the Navy would jump at that opportunity(unless there were other political considerations I know not). I feel the Navy gets a bit defensive about the fact that, while they did an important job in WWII, it wasn't as high profile as fighting in Italy, as the Army and Air Force. Sending these subs to the Indian Ocean is the sort of mission that allows them to say they are taking an active and important role in the war, while being within their resources. They even had a submarine tender to send, the Tender Ceará: http://www.naval.com.br/NGB/C/C066/C066.htm - Web page in Portuguese, but there are pictures in the end. Ceará is a fascinating ship, a 1913-vintage ship(delivered during WWI), that had a floodable well dock that could be used to transport submarines, or do hull pressure tests. Humaitá and the T-sisters were too big to fit in the dock(it was designed for the Foca-class submarines Brazil had back then), but Ceará operated as submarine tender until after the war(paid off in 1946). THis is covered in an article I posted on the FFO board. In FFO, there is both more need earlier and more equipment available. However, much of it is not first rate. Would the Brazilian Air Force be willing to accept B-18 bombers, P-40 fighters and other such older types?P-40s, certainly - we had a few of them(about 10-14 P-40Ks and Ls, IIRC). I remember reading about Brazil receiving P-36s as well(less than 5), but this is not confirmed. B-18s, I don't see why not - at a glance, they would be better maritime patrol aircraft than the Fw-58 we had, and probably so at a more detailed look(OTOH, we built the Fw-58 ourselves, even if it wasn't that many of them). As for the Army, I noticed that it was actually raised on a French regimental model. In FFO, the sheer number of smaller Allies has meant the development of quite a substantial system for training and developing their abilities. For example, 150,000 Belgian troops were evacuated from Europe. The French had a massive training problem in North Africa. All of that has been done and set up, and most of the men trained, just as Brazil enters the war. If the Brazilian government is willing to walk before its can run, then training and developing Brazilian infantry brigades can actually start quickly. Obviously, things take time, but in FFO the development of experience and command-and-control up to Corps level might even be possible. Certainly, division level would be reached so that the Army could effectively use and fight at the divisional level by the end of the war. Again, there are stocks of older equipment (Valentine and Lee tanks etc) which can be used quite quickly in FFO. Yes, the Army used the French model, we had a French military mission to help train our troops in the 1920-39 period(first chief of this mission was General Maurice Gamelin). Continuing this mission in North Africa could be done in FFO, in my opinion. As for older equipment, once again, there is historical precedent; we had a few Lee tanks(what sources I have read put them at single digits; 4-5 seems to be the number). The interesting things about FFO is that contributions do NOT have to be big. Even just single paragraphs describing how the Brazilian military and political situation is developing would be very useful in the narrative. They could simply be added to Fantastiques timelines. We are extremely flexible, and we have no Brazilian FFO member!I'll contact you later today. |
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MarkLBailey |
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Posts: 2271 ( 9-May-2008 10:50:45) |
That is very interesting. I look forward to your email. I'd guess at this stage that idea of the transfer would start early (1941, say) with agreement in
principle and then conversion of the ships. In OTL Brazil entered the war in August 1942 but IIRC it was doing patrols and was obviously a very friendly
neutral at least a year before that. There is no reason I can see why assistance could not start that early. There is the chance that it would push the Germans
to attack trade off the Brazilian coast early, which might well bring Brazil in early.
If the navy would jump at the chance of deploying the submarines, it would be very gratefully accepted. Ceara would actually be very useful, I suspect that her well dock would be seen as priceless in those waters for docking small surface craft. If older types are acceptable, then all of this could start a year early. B-18, for example, was good as a MPA and in Southern Europe could be an acceptable night bomber in low-threat areas as well, to provide essential operational training. They might well get replaced by Wellingtons in that role (medium night bomber) in higher threat areas. It is also quite likely that the RN would start to loan ships by late 1943, when their manpower crisis REALLY starts to bite. It would probably something simple, like a half-dozen modern DD. Another option is simply to transfer the 5 surviving ex-Brazilian H class DD shortly after Brazil enters the war. That would give the Navy 6 4-piper escorts and 5 modern DD at that time. Perhaps the crews could come from the ancient cruisers? There are a lot of options. For example, the old cruisers could be replaced with RN ships (perhaps the E class) either transferred or on loan. Cheers: Mark |
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Guilherme Loureiro |
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Posts: 171 ( 9-May-2008 15:21:07) |
The e-mail bounced back, so I sent you a private message instead.
Regarding manpower for the 'new' DDs and possible cruisers, I'm doing an estimate as I type this reply. Brazil had 10 Pará class TBs in the early 30's(4 were retired before Brazil joined the war), as well as the Acasta(WWI 'K' class) class DD Maranhão(former HMS Porpoise). I'm getting crew sizes of 81 for the Pará class, and 142 for Maranhão(surprisingly, another site lists the Acasta class crew size as being 75-77), so we have 952 men and officers to play with. The 4-pipers the RN used as escorts are listed as having a crew of 143-156. 6 ships with 156 men mean 936 of these men are taken. Retiring Bahia and Rio Grande do Sul gives us 680 more men(340 men for each cruiser), so we have 696 crew left. The Brazilian H-class DDs are listed as requiring 145 men each, times five, means 725 men. I think the 29 men difference can be absorbed by the pre-war Navy without much trouble; however, getting one or two cruisers mean putting São Paulo to pasture to free crew. The situation will change as new men and officers are trained after Brazil joins the war. Same thing would apply for Air Force(after 1941, before that it's still the Army Aviation and Naval Aviation setup) squadrons, but I don't have numbers for them. |
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MarkLBailey |
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Posts: 2272 (11-May-2008 05:55:41) |
Guilherme, I only have Conways. It says 130 for the para's 350 for the Bahias and 900 for the BB. Lenton's wonderful 'British and Empire
Warships' gives 146-152 for th escort-modified 4-pipers.
There is also the issue of dilution. Good prewar crews can be diluted 1:1 very quickly, although it makes the CO and XO really, really unhappy!. So overall, if the growth rate is kept from going wild, and a shore training infrastructure is developed to keep pace with the demands of the fleet, I do not see an overwhelming problem. I did not know that Sao Paulo was still crewed, I have to admit! I would note that the 6 modified 4-piper should replace the Para's, but that for a time the Para's could still perform a useful coastal role. It is obvious that they were worn out by 1940 or so. I'd also note that the two Bahia's would form an excellent training ship Squadron, and that Sao Paulo herself could be very useful in that function even in a purely harbour role. So she could be guardship and do a lot of basic training too,with the two old cruisers being the seagoing training ships. These three vessels could provide an excellent short term answer to a lot of the basic seaman training. Obviously, appropriate shore establishments would have to be built, but these ships buy the 2 years to do that. Worth thinking about. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the RN would transfer the four remaining Jurua class DD very quickly after Brazil, enters the war. They have a lot of P, Q, R and S class D coming out in 1942, and were hitting manpower problems from 1943 (they had predicted them quite accurately in 1941). The USN has real issues with transferring DD and has no manpower issues comparable to the RN. There is absolutely no chance of the USN being able to transfer cruisers. The cruisers are a little more problematic - everyone is short of them - but the RN still has a real manpower problem. In OTL, the C, D and E class were being put into reserve by 1944 along with the older BB and even carriers (Furious). The C and D are not really worth having, but the RN still may need even those old, worn-out clunkers in Asia. I suspect they will be refitted and handed over to the Indian Navy. The RN simply won't have the manpower to crew them. The E class are a real possibility, but I'd look long and hard at the Leanders and Arethusas. If Brazil wanted one or two of these, by 1943 I suspect they could get them either by loan (easy) or sale (easier). That would also make training easier, with the Jurua class sharing exactly the same era of RN technology. If the Brazilian Navy sends submarines to Asia, then it is quite probable that the RN would be happy to supply U class subs, and then the new 'FFO U class', which is a high speed sub closely resembling the WWI R class. Those boats will be the standard RN sub in Asian waters by 1944. Cheers: Mark |
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Guilherme Loureiro |
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Posts: 172 (11-May-2008 19:56:12) |
My source for crew sizes are two sites. First one is Navios de Guerra Brasileiros(Brazilian Warships), at http://www.naval.com.br/NGB/Letras2.htm . I feel this
site, although almost certainly has its errors(and is incomplete WRT certain ships), probably illustrates better the reality of those ships in Brazilian
service. Second site is Warships 1900-50, at http://www.warshipsww2.eu/staty.php?language=E&period= . Looking better at the first site, most Pará class TBs
seem to have had 104 men for crew. Looks like I got the wrong ship as a sample. Minas Gerais is listed as having 1,173 men; 48 officers, 90 NCOs and 1,035
enlisted men, while the São Paulo entry only says '1,200 men'.
Surprisingly enough, I know the battleships were manned because of a novel. A retired admiral(who joined the Brazilian Navy as a midshipman in 1944) wrote a novel about the crew of a fictional DE in the Brazilian Navy in the 1944-45 period, using the real Brazilian Navy of then as the background. The battleships are mentioned a few times. Whether they were fully manned or not I don't know, although I doubt they had a full crew. The Parás were certainly worn out by 1940; only 6 of them were in service by 1940. Pará herself was paid off in March 1936. Only one or two of them survived WWII, and they were gone in 1946. São Paulo in a basic training role; I suspect São Paulo and Minas Gerais had this role historically while serving as guardships, but it's a suspicion only. Agree on using the Bahia class cruisers as training ships as well. Agree on C, D and E class cruisers, but I thought Leanders and Arethusas would still be needed. Or is the manpower crunch so bad they could afford to part with those ships? Agree that, if Brazilian subs are sent to Asia, the RN would supply submarines to Brazil as attrition replacements and to expand the Brazilian sub fleet. Didn't the RN supply subs to the Dutch during the war? |
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borys68 |
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Posts: 2562 (11-May-2008 20:42:04) |
Ahoj!
On subs - the Polish navy was given subs by the RN. Borys |
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borys68 |
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Posts: 2563 (11-May-2008 20:46:58) |
Ahoj!
On subs - the Polish navy was given subs by the RN. Borys |
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MarkLBailey |
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Posts: 2273 (12-May-2008 12:44:28) |
Guilherme
Comment: There always seem to be quite large variations in crew numbers. I think that taking a reasonable assessment is fine, based on evidence to hand. 1,173, broken up as above, seems to me to be quite reasonable. It raises a subsidiary question, just how bad was Sao Paulo's material state, or was she just marginally worse than Minas Gerias, and so did not get the 1930s update because of shortage of money. She is certainly much less useful because she remains in a basic WWI state. That said, if the hull is actually sound, then a comprehensive rebuilding may be possible. Removing the wing turrets on this class liberates a heck of a lot of volume. Surprisingly enough, I know the battleships were manned because of a novel. A retired admiral(who joined the Brazilian Navy as a midshipman in 1944) wrote a novel about the crew of a fictional DE in the Brazilian Navy in the 1944-45 period, using the real Brazilian Navy of then as the background. The battleships are mentioned a few times. Whether they were fully manned or not I don't know, although I doubt they had a full crew. Comment: Again, we might be surprised especially if, as you suspect, she was used for training purposes while a guardship. That makes an awful lot of sense. The Parás were certainly worn out by 1940; only 6 of them were in service by 1940. Pará herself was paid off in March 1936. Only one or two of them survived WWII, and they were gone in 1946. São Paulo in a basic training role; I suspect São Paulo and Minas Gerais had this role historically while serving as guardships, but it's a suspicion only. Agree on using the Bahia class cruisers as training ships as well. Comment: That actually makes a very nice training SQN, and they can also do a good and fairly safe training cruise from Brazil to the Pacific end of the Panama zone, do a LOT of exercises there in excellent training facilities, including 12" main battery firing (at Panama and also Puerto Rico) and then come back, under land-based MPA coverage the whole way. This will work very well, I think. It also provides training for the MN training subs based in the Panama zone. A big win-win. Agree on C, D and E class cruisers, but I thought Leanders and Arethusas would still be needed. Or is the manpower crunch so bad they could afford to part with those ships? Comment: The manpower crunch is that bad. They cannot afford to part with the ships, but they would almost certainly SELL them at low cost, IF they could retain the operational use of them. The alternative, if not being able to exercise a measure of control over the ships is important to the Brazilian government, would be the E class. The RN would probably be happy to grant them provided that they formed part of the Brazilian naval force assigned to the Pacific offensive. If the BN SS force was already there, that may be acceptable. Agree that, if Brazilian subs are sent to Asia, the RN would supply submarines to Brazil as attrition replacements and to expand the Brazilian sub fleet. Didn't the RN supply subs to the Dutch during the war? Comment: Yes, on loan. I'd think that they'd loan 1 for training purposes back in Brazil (there has to be a submarine school as the BN has a mature SS arm). I further suspect that they'd give subs to replace ones sunk in action. Subs desired to expand the BN SS arm would have to be purchased, I think. Borys Your comments are, of course, correct. Cheers: Mark
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