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RLBH |
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Posts: 743 ( 9-May-2008 22:56:24) |
Hmm, Harrow Weald, eh? Somebody's going to be very, very mad about that...
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EdwardEddie |
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Posts: 6 (10-May-2008 00:50:32) |
Well, well, well. How many dead are we talking (good thing this bomb didn't explode over the Docklands)? The death toll is probably equivalent to a bad day
in the Blitz during World War II.
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PMN1 |
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Posts: 3512 (10-May-2008 10:00:08) |
That reminds me, how much damage did that B747 do to Luton after being downed by hand held SAM?
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Fred the Great |
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Posts: 868 (10-May-2008 10:07:12) |
Fred, No problem Jan. Just one thing to lkeep in mind - my comments were about the current and planned structure of the Australian Army. So bringing this structure forward in your timeframe would be about as realistic as you can get, IMHO. By the way, the only thing that hasn't happened so far in terms of the ORBAT I posted above is the re-raising of 8/9RAR. 5/7RAR has been delinked, with 7RAR in the process of being brought up to strength. Effectively, the Australian Army has finally set itself firmly on the battlegrouping concept. The intention is that there will be 11 units capable of acting as battlegoup HQs - the seven infantry battalions, the armoured (tank) regiment, the two cavalry (AUSLAV) regiments, and 1 Aviation Regiment (with its Tigers). Also, one correction to my previous post - it would be unlikely we would raise a second armoured regiment called the 2nd Armoured, since the policy has been that the Royal Australian Armoured Corp regular units are numbered as if they are of the same type. Hence, 1 Armoured, 2 Cavalry, 3/4 Cavalry. We would also now have a former reserve unit - 2/14 Light Horse Regiment - which has converted to being all regular, or at least almost all regular. It may be that this unit gets a new name, or maybe not. But in any case, I would think that a second armoured regiment would be called something other than 2nd Armoured - perhaps 5 Armoured would be safe. A couple of equipment issues; Shane suggested either the Bradley, CV90, or LAV-IV as the new IFV. I chose the last because it would, AFAIK, have the most commonality with the ASLAV and wheeled vehicles would probably be cheaper. The LAV-IV may be cheaper, but I would suggest it would be most unlikely Australia would go down this path. If you're getting the Abrams, a SPH, adding a second mechanised battalion, and (in this timeline) a second armoured regiment, it runs somewhat contrary to the theme of hardening the army to then get a wheeled IFV. Bradley or Warrior are the best bets for my money, with the upgraded M-113s (i.e. the actual) more likely in my opinion than the LAV-IV. Because of the RAN procurement of Merlin HM.51s with the V class destroyers, the Army procured the Merlin TTH (HC.53) rather than the MRH.90. In fact I've got a couple of nice picies of Aussie Merlins which I'll post below. They certainly are nice piccies. Don't want to hurt any feelings here, but the V class destroyers and, to a lesser extent, the Merlins doesn't fut too well at all. Why would we go British with such major purchases when we haven't done that for many years? The decisions in reality - the F-100 and the NH-90s - make more sense for Australia. I think that the Aussies and the Kiwis would also send a small detachment to Malaysia to join the British Gurkha battalion; a chance for a CW brigade perhaps. It would be a good way to take the fight to the Indonesians. Have you considered the wishes of Malaysia here? The Malays are hardly jumping to the tune of the Brits and certainly not the Australians anymore -
particularly ever since one of our PMs called one of their's recalcitrant. A lovely word that. But even thinking of this in military terms, Malaysia
arguably has a stronger army than Indonesia - four divisions - with modern, by the immediate region's standards, equipment. Singapore does even better. If
either or both of these two wanted to fight Indonesia, then the latter would be in a world of pain. An air campaign from all directions - Australia from the
south-east, Singapore and Malaysia to the north and north-west. Any Australian Army deployment here would be purely symbolic, therefore, a waste of resources,
and possibly unwanted. It it were to happen, it would be to Brunei, where the Gurkhas are, but I think this would run the greatest risk of creating the fear in
Indonesia that we intended to invade its half of Borneo.
Not disagreeing with anything you've said there, except to add that money would also be needed, of course. But just to expand on how much time would be needed I would think we would be talking a minimum of six months and more likely at least a year. All of NZ's six reserve battalions are, like Australia's, well below strength. Even just bringing those up to strength with trained personnel would take at least six months. Raising new units will definitely add up to another six months. It really is odd how Australia and NZ have over the years failed to maintain stronger armies than what was considered the norm in western Europe during the Cold War, but there you go. |
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chrisRoach |
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Posts: 112 (10-May-2008 11:53:46) |
JNiemczyk wrote:Good writing (as per usual) Jan! Hmm... Jakarta (or ruins thereof) glowing in the dark? I wanna see that
Your Text Signature ...
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JNiemczyk |
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Posts: 6342 (10-May-2008 22:37:12) |
RLBH,
I'm racking my brains to think of what famous person comes from Harrow Weald, or has connections to it. Edward, The death total is probably going to be in the high hundreds at least. The total casualties are going to number in the thousands; clearing the hospitals of most patients during the TTW phase will now pay off. PMN1, Quite a bit, though not on this scale. There was a lot of fire and structural damage, but casualties were lower. Fred, I would think that a second armoured regiment would be called something other than 2nd Armoured - perhaps 5 Armoured would be safe. That's easy enough changed, or maybe one of the existing reserve RAAC regiments could be re-rolled into the armoured role? If we are looking at a tracked IFV then IMVHO it has to be a choice between the CV90, if Australia is feeling independent, or the Bradley if it is sticking closer to the Americans. My personal preference would be for a version of the CV90 because I think it is probably the better vehicle. They certainly are nice piccies. Don't want to hurt any feelings here, but the V class destroyers and, to a lesser extent, the Merlins doesn't fut too well at all. The Type 45 of the TLWverse is fitted with the Mark 41 VLS rather than the French SYLVER, which makes it far more competitive in the export market than it is in @. With the Mark 41 then you can build a T45 armed with US weapons, or whatever fits in the silos. The Merlins came as part of the destroyer deal. Have you considered the wishes of Malaysia here? I have. However they now consider themselves to be at war with the USSR because its troops have shot at the Malaysian SFOR contingent. The FPDA also probably comes into play since Australia has been attacked. I'd think that the Malaysians would be worried about the Indonesians causing trouble in Borneo. It really is odd how Australia and NZ have over the years failed to maintain stronger armies than what was considered the norm in western Europe during the Cold War, but there you go. You've been lucky not to have had Communist hordes just over the IGB to think about. AFAIK Oz and NZ never really faced a direct threat during the CW the same way that the UK and the rest of NATO did. There also does not seem to have been an appetite for larger armed forces in peacetime. Of course despite the lack of a direct threat does not mean that Canberra, Sydney, Wellington and Auckland were not Soviet bull's eyes. It does seem that they would have taken out the majority of the world's capitals no matter whether one was a US ally, or a neutral, to prevent them from dominating the post-strike world. Chris, I'm not sure I want to turn Jakarta into radioactive glass just yet.
Glad you liked the chapter. |
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RJimFox |
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Registered Member
Posts: 7 (11-May-2008 02:31:18) |
I would suspect that there are several very relieved men in ROC Group controls and in the RGHQ. Not only because this big bang has turned out not to be a special weapon, but also because they are not totally out of the TTW phase and into the 'ready for war' phase. (especially where nuclear weapons are concerned) For the civil defence dimension, I would expect a speeding up of all operational plans wrt REGGOV pretty quickly, and the domestic situation to take a turn for the worst with people starting to get worried. The NEV will have their work cut out with regards to rescue. I was having a think about this a few minutes ago: if the Western Allies hit back with a similar weapon it sets a worrying precedent of 'like for like', but may also dissuade the USSR from thinking it can use nuc weapons and get away with it. If not striking back like for like, you either go up a notch: which means nuc., or down a notch, which means normal conventional bombing. If NATO is no first use that could prove problematic (I ca't remember if thats true in TLW) because it means conventional weapons are the only way to go. Not only is this going to make some people on the TLW Politics of War board accuse NATO of cowardice in the face of the enemy and letting the evil commie bastards win, but it may foster a belief that they can get away with things in the Sov High Command; and perhaps make the USSR more likely to believe it can use nuc. Its all going to be very interesting, that is for damn sure!
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JNiemczyk |
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Posts: 6343 (11-May-2008 02:57:03) |
The NEV will have their work cut out with regards to rescue.
They most certainly will. I've been watching a few old Civil Defence Corps training films (The Warden & His Duties and Training, Care of the Homeless, and The Warden & the Householder, which are all available on youtube, though I've got them on DVD) to get a feeling on what the NEV might be doing. The wardens, for example, are going to be First Responders on the scene of this explosion; they have the local knowledge of who lives where, where a good place for an RV point for Emergency vehicles would be, which routes the Emergency Services should take and where suitable buildings to act as Rest Centres are. The rescue units will respond to assist the fire brigade in digging people out of buildings and clearing the roads of debris, while the welfare units help with the homeless. I was having a think about this a few minutes ago: if the Western Allies hit back with a similar weapon it sets a worrying precedent of 'like for like', but may also dissuade the USSR from thinking it can use nuc weapons and get away with it. SAC is planning to hit at the Soviet Homeland in retaliation for attacks on CONUS, so adding a few extra targets in retaliation for this attack is possible. The problem is that I don't think that the UK has sizable thermobaric weapons, or a way to deliver them much beyond Western Poland, so we'd need to rely on the USAF to strike back at the heartland of the USSR. I guess we could use Tomahawks fired from SSNs, or T45/46s though. Its all going to be very interesting, that is for damn sure! Reminds me of the famous Chinese curse - May you live in interesting times. |
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Roller007 |
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Posts: 1186 (11-May-2008 05:36:02) |
Actually the British have access to the US Thermobaric program. They provided a specially designed charge that doubled the yield on the BLU-118B warhead that
went operation in 2004. This can be mounted in several delivery packages from glide bombs to Cruise missiles.
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trekaddict |
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Posts: 876 (11-May-2008 07:02:36) |
JNiemczyk wrote: Operation Doolittle anyone? Allthough pulling that of as per the book might not be so easy, considering that they lost two SSNs in there, but launching them from the Baltic Sea might be another option, especially when the RN wants to hit Leningrad or Moscow.
Bond: Do you expect me to talk? Goldfinger: No, Mr Bond, I expect you to die! There's nothing about you that I don't already know!
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