ViribusUnitis wrote:
Joshua Kintner wrote:Aren't two of the four operational, one in the Northern fleet and one in the Pacific ?
Since the Kirov class would never put to sea again,...
Yes they are.
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Fermi2 |
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Posts: 3269 ( 1-May-2008 23:04:40) |
ViribusUnitis wrote:
Yes they are.
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Admiral Beez |
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Posts: 4515 ( 2-May-2008 17:46:55) |
Okay, let's give the Russians a Final Countdown advantage.
Could Kuznetsov and four destroyers of 2007 beat Ark Royal and four destroyers of 1977? SU-33 and Ka-27 AEW vs. Phantom MK.1s, Buccaneer MK.2s, and Gannet AEW Mk.3s. I'd put my money on Ark Royal, provided that there is some guided anti-ship missile capability for Ark's fourteen Buccaneer S MK.2s in 1977. Otherwise the lack of CIWS on Ark will give her trouble. How does Kuznetsov compare against the current Invincible class during its last SHAR deployment? I'd say that AEW-guided Sea Harriers should do some damage. |
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emc |
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Posts: 3725 ( 2-May-2008 18:03:40) |
Admiral Beez wrote: 30 years advantage? I would not be quite so sanguine. Indeed, I suspect that the Kuznetsov and her consorts
would be able to saturate the defenses of the Ark Royal and her consorts.
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Admiral Beez |
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Posts: 4516 ( 2-May-2008 19:05:49) |
How good was/is the Sea Eagle anti-ship missile carried by the Sea Harrier compared to the SS-N-22 Sunburn on the SU-33?
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seasick |
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Posts: 4633 ( 3-May-2008 00:01:35) |
The Sea Eagle is shorter ranged and slower, but is harder to fool and flys below the minimum altitude of many of the Soviet/Russian AAW defenses. The Sea Eagle
was withdrawn from active inventory in the mid-1990s.
The P270 Moskit and its air launched half brother the Kh-41 are supersonic with a maximum range of 120km (65nm or 75 statute miles) at most. Larger warhead. shorter reaction times. |
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Obi Wan Russell |
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Posts: 198 ( 5-May-2008 01:41:45) |
Admiral Beez wrote: Arks' Buccaneers were armed with Martel ASMs from 1974 onwards. 809NAS had a normal complement of 14 aircraft, 10 of which were Martel capable S2Ds and the remaining four were non Martel capable S2Cs. The latter were usually used as tankers and at least one of the four was kept on standby for recce missions using the camera pallet installed in the bomb bay. 892 NAS had a normal complement of 12 Phantom FG1s, each armed at the time with four AIM-7 Sparrows (they did not recieve Skyflash until passed to RAF service) and four AIM-9G Sidewinders on the AD role. Additionally the F4s could carry a sizable 'iron' bomb load, either 1000lb or 540lb bombs and anti shipping strikes were regularly practiced so any strike by her air group would be a combined effort. |
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Scouse |
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Posts: 260 ( 8-May-2008 15:35:37) |
One thing to correct in this scenario immediately is that there is no Russian Kh-41!. The ASM-MSS or air-launched 3M80E1 never got past the developmental stage
and is not a weapon available to Russian Naval Aviation - no matter how popular the photo's of ASM-MSS mockups alongside Su-33's are on the net!. The
only air-launched anti-ship missile available to the Su-33's would be the direct-flight supersonic Kh-31AM or the Kh-35.
Given that the French group have the situational awareness, through the Hawkeyes, to track and counter any Russian movement it is difficult to imagine a situation where a Russian Flanker strike ends in anything other than multiple kill markings painted on Rafale airframes and a smug group of Aeronavale pilots!. The Russian Flag would have to know that too. The only real striking power from the Kuznetov group comes from its long-range missiles. A screen of 1 Slava plus a Sov and a pair of Udaloys means a dozen P-700's from the carrier plus another dozen P-1000's from the Slava. Without Legenda targetting support this means the offensive reach of the Kuznetsov group is the surface search range of the Ka-31's embarked and the only tactic that makes sense for them would be to maintain a maximum-effort defensive screen with air ops optimised for the maximum possible CAP coverage and SAMs up. The French have the tactical suprise and mobility. They can see the Russians dispositions and manoevres as they happen with little risk of counter-detection or, at least, counter-tracking. If they can stay out of that Ka-31 radar coverage they have little to fear from the Russian fleet. In reality, with a Forbin and E-2 coverage, in the French group the have little to fear from 2 dozen heavyweight antiship missiles as they should be pretty easy targets for Aster30!. The problem that the French have is in striking power. A salvo attack of a dozen AM-39's will achieve little once in the Russian Missile Engagement Zone and closing on a Flanker CAP just skirting its own MEZ, even for the Rafales, is going to be twitchy...doing it in an Exocet-laden, and decidedly subsonic, Super Etendard is going to require a pair that go le clang!. So summary the fight is a totally defensive Russian group that cant draw a bead on the French contrasted with a French group that hasnt the teeth to press its information advantage...unless of course the French le cheat and swap one of their escorts for an SSN!. |
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esp49129 |
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Posts: 82 ( 9-May-2008 19:01:12) |
I agree that the Russian CVBG will have a hard time hitting the French from the air and from the sea, since the French have the information advantage to
elude the Russians and a good chance of detecting and countering their supersonic missiles.
Last Edited By: esp49129
9-May-2008 19:04:06.
Edited 1 times.
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Moskit |
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Posts: 981 (13-May-2008 23:56:28) |
"You've completely mistaken the Russian doctrine for the Kuznetzov. "
A common problem. All too often Western observers make the mistake of assuming that Russian kit is supposed to be used the way that apparently equivalent Western kit would be employed. It isn't. The differences can be subtle, often they are profound. |
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Moskit |
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Posts: 982 (13-May-2008 23:58:44) |
"They haven't had a real good victory since Gangut."
Yeah, the Germans really pasted the Russians' asses in the Baltic in 1945, didn't they? |
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