http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/27/chinese-building-93000-ton-supercarrier/
since China is looking to be a superpower they are building up their navy
since China is looking to be a superpower they are building up their navy
Chinese carrier build-up?
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 FreeloaderUK |
Chinese carrier build-up? |
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Posts: 112 (16-Apr-2008 13:25:52) |
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Sink them All |
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Posts: 16 (16-Apr-2008 18:29:40) |
According to 2007-08 Janes Fighting Ships, the Chinese have renamed the former CV Varyag to the Shi Lang, named after the Admiral who conquered Taiwan in 1681 - kinda gloomy choice. |
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FreeloaderUK |
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Posts: 118 (16-Apr-2008 22:30:53) |
im not surprised but its not carriers that will re-conquer Taiwan- its amphibious assault ships & lots of them too.
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jim3au |
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Posts: 1446 (17-Apr-2008 00:03:31) |
In two years time, the Chinese might have a conventional carrier nearly as good as the ones the Indians are building. That would be a fantastic effort. If the
Chinese were going to build a carrier to be completed in two years time then there should be alot more than a filing cabinet full of plans. The actual hull
should be somewhere now.
If the ship was to be completed in two years time, even if the Chinese are going to works some miracles, the ship probably has to have been launched already. If there is a 48,000 ton flat top floating around then the Americans have some terrific photos already and it is still a secret? That is an even bigger miracle. I could believe that China could launch a conventional carrier in two years time but it would take years after that to complete the ship and probably years after that to commission the ship. If they get it done faster, even if they have some great plans and great planning, it is going to be a pretty primitive ship. Using this prototype, they then intend to refine the plans for a 90,000 ton nuclear powered ship to be built by 2020. That would be miraculous. They are going to have to learn to use a carrier from scratch using planes that have never operated from a carrier and probably have not been built yet and that experience is going to inform them in the designing and building of this super carrier. This 90,000 ton carrier is unlikely to be close to as good as the USS Nimitz. They will not have the experience to do it and it will require a very large cheque book because it is going to be a one off rush job. Even if they have been able to beg buy or steal the plans for these carriers and they throw the resources at these two jobs, the completion of either in the time frame would be a huge achievement for Chinese industry. Nothing like that will have been achieved like that since WWII and never on this scale or complexity. It will be the achievement of a superpower. And no group will be more pleased than the United States Navy. the highly developed paranoia of the US defence industries will go into overdrive. Talk of decommissioning carriers will be replaced with talk of new building programs. The industry will try to convince the Congress and the public that ten or a dozen super carriers is nowhere near enough to guarantee the security of the USA. I suppose that is one attraction of the plan. Even if the Chinese carriers are hugely expensive, primitive imitations of the USN carriers and even if there are only one or two, it will provoke the USA to spend even vaster sums trying to increase an advantage over the PRC that is already unbridgeable for a generation at least. |
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FreeloaderUK |
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Posts: 119 (17-Apr-2008 00:51:45) |
well if China wants to become a world superpower then they need supercarriers, even the USSR realised it- which is why they were building two supercarries even
at the end of the cold war. If China wants to play catch-up with USA then they need to start now. they can certainly have a couple of supercarriers operational
by 2020- yes their crews will be as inexperienced as they can get but they need to start somewhere. the USA has operated nuclear powered supercarriers for 45
years- they didnt build their fleet in 20years its taken much longer than that- China could of course simply NOT build carriers but they wont be treated as a
global power if so.
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jim3au |
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Posts: 1448 (17-Apr-2008 06:11:47) |
China is a global power now but it is not a superpower. For me the test of a superpower is their ability to wage a war at great distance from the homeland for
example in Africa or Iraq.
One day soon I might get surprised, but the growth in the Chinese surface fleet is relatively modest. Similarly their submarines keep on improving but the numbers of high quality, conventional submarines is still small and their nuclear powered submarines seem relatively impotent compared to the other nuclear powered submarines in the world and again their numbers are small. People keep talking the growth and expenditure up but it really is not that much compared with the nations around her. The Japanese have built the best that money can buy in destroyers and conventional submarines. The South Koreans are building some really powerful, high tech destroyers. India is getting into the carrier game. It is unsure exactly how good the domestically produced destroyers are but the same could be said of the Chinese product. It looks good on paper, but does it work? There is one other neighbour who, although she has fallen on hard times lately cannot be ignored and that is Russia. The Russians are building new ships and refurbishing old ones. The numbers of ships fit to take to sea may still be small but the original idea of the Russian fleet was to challenge the USN. The Russians have a well deserved reputation for making ordinary machinery achieve great things. I could well understand if the People's Republic of China felt hemmed in by [or potential ] enemies on all sides. China is dependent on imports of raw materials from all over the world. China needs to export to pay for these imports. She is going to depend on sea lanes staying open or she will suffer economic disaster. In this she is in the same situation as Japan and South Korea. I could understand how some small conventional carriers would suit the Chinese Navy but to go to a super carrier so soon seems aggressive and a waste of resources when they are still trying to fix deficiencies in other areas. In some respects I would like a carrier or two for the Royal Australian Navy but what we would be looking at for China is the first nuclear carrier in twelve years and the next ten over the succeeding twenty years and they will still not have parity with what the Americans have right now. The thing that makes me think that it is only talk possibly aimed at getting the US to spend some more treasure on a non-existent arms race is that when they build this super carrier, it will invite comparison with the other super carriers in the world all of which are American. Looking forward to thirty or fifty years of being visibly second best to the USA does not sound like the PRC.
Last Edited By: jim3au
17-Apr-2008 22:58:20.
Edited 1 times.
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pukalshik |
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Posts: 15 (17-Apr-2008 09:27:14) |
jim3au wrote: Where USA will get the money? |
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FreeloaderUK |
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Posts: 122 (17-Apr-2008 11:59:57) |
China has been making alliances with Russia & India.
Russia might have the military technology that China lacks- but Russia's main problem is that with the collapse of the USSR in 1991 her Empire dissappeared. with only 140million people & a decling population at that Russia is unlikely to return to superpower status- she is only afterall 8th or 9th in the world in terms of GDP- much of that being funded by her oil wealth. Putin has been building up Russia's military of late but after 16years of cuts- a lot has to be done. China's main problem is that her military technology lags behind the west in virtually ALL areas- this means that though she has a lot of resources available- these resources are spread thinly & playing catch-up isnt an easy task. she's been buying a lot of hardware from the Russians & analyzing western technology too in order to advance her own industry, but she's got a mammoth task to actually modernize everything. the modern battlefield is about information & command & control- this seriously has to be upgraded. China is slowly shifting from a brown water navy to a blue water navy & she has been studying aircraft carrier designs since 1985- but as its been pointed out the west would know if she was building a carrier so i think China wont be doing anything major yet or it will alarm the US & the Japanese. the last thing China needs is Japan to start building carriers & for the US to commission more. its hard to play catch-up if the opposition are racing ahead. |
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jim3au |
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Posts: 1450 (17-Apr-2008 23:17:42) |
Pukalshik, the global war on terror has provoked the biggest waste of resources since at least the Vietnam War. The War in Iraq all by itself is chasing the
cost of the Vietnam War. Then there is the conflict in Afghanistan [that sent the USSR broke] and the really big costs are in all the increased security at
airports, government buildings, movement and surveillance of citizens etc.
It is not true that Osama bin Laden has done this to the Americans. The Americans have done it to themselves. Still, the US Defence budget is four hundred billion and climbing. The total Federal budget is many times that. For many years they have had a program to build bigger, more modern carriers and replace aging ones. If Kitty Hawk can last over forty years and still be good enough to go to war, then there is no reason that USS Nimitz will not be steaming the oceans of the world for decades yet. The ships that the USN presently has in commission are enough to keep it ahead of the People's Republic, even if they do not build any more, for at least thirty years. The aircraft that they have will keep them ahead of the PRC, even if they do not build any more, for decades. The missiles and weapons systems that the USN presently use again will keep them ahead of the PRC for a decade at least. It really depends on what the USA wants to spend her tax dollars on. |
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jim3au |
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Posts: 1451 (18-Apr-2008 00:02:15) |
Freeloader, I think that the economy of China is at high risk of serious disaster. I am talking the type of disaster that causes governments to fall and bread lines to form even in a totalitarian state. But the Chinese economy has enormous strengths and is planning for the long term albeit differently to how others might plan. The Chinee are planning to be the greatest nation, sorry, they already count themselves as the greatest nation in history; they wish to be recognised as the greatest nation in the world in the future.
As I just said to Pukalshik, the USA has an unbridgeable gap in aircraft carriers and other ships for at least the next forty years and probably further out than that. The US aircraft presently flying are easily the best and will be for a couple of decades even if the PRC manage to find a spare copy of the plans for the F22 lying unwanted in a dustbin somewhere. The US missiles of all shapes and sizes are not only better than anything that the Chinese have, but will remain so for a decade or more.
And there is the crux of the matter. Missiles and tactics are changing. There is every possibility that technology will make the investments of the USA in aircraft carriers obsolete long before the ships wear out. The USN has been developing the concept of aircraft carriers both before and after WWII. They are still developing that concept.
In 1980, there was a movie called "The Final Countdown" where the USS Nimitz, without her battle group but with her air wing more or less intact and her other weapons fully operational, is thrown back in time to just before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. Eventually after lots of boring soul searching, the Admiral decides that it is their duty to intervene and save Hawaii from the Japanese. They are entirely confident that the USS Nimitz is equal to the task. A bit after they launch their full air wing to intervene the movie ends, just when it was going to get interesting.
The point is, that the USS Kitty Hawk, as she is today, is in important ways a more advanced ship than the USS Nimitz of 1980. The USS Ronald Reagan is bigger and more clever than both of these great ships. But none of this means that some sort of missile firing drone will not be manufactured for a few thousand dollars a unit that can overwhelm the defences of any of these immense and clever ships.
I think that China is counting on this. The Chinese are now investing as much as any nation in the world in research and development. They have been growing that budget at a phenomenal rate for a couple of decades. The Chinese are growing their expenditure on education faster than their economy and have been for a couple of decades. To me that speaks of an investment in the future that must yield impressive results for the life of the people.
They may keep stealing other people's secrets for a while yet but soon some of the best technology will be found in the PRC. That is how they intend to beat the US if the US doesn't beat herself.
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xht1sw |
Where the $$$ comes from | ||
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Posts: 46 (18-Apr-2008 08:44:25) |
Jim, you make a good point. The US can't be beaten by anyone else right now, but we are more than capable of kicking our own a$$e$. Right now, the USA is a
very polarized place. Look at the present, and last two, presidential elections. Either you love Hillary or hate her. Either you're a red stater or a blue
stater. Yes, 9/11 brought this country back together like few events in history has. But there is still a massive divide about how best to carry on. Where will
the money come from to build all these new weapons and sustain one of the most powerful fighting forces the world has ever known? The same place it always has
- the will of the American people as expressed by the American government. The US dollar is only worth something because of that little phrase on all US
currency - "This note is Legal Tender for all debts public and private". In other words, the US dollar is only worth something because we say
it is and the majority of the world believes it. Now, with Iraq, Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and so on, the USA loses its credibility every day, and so does
the American dollar, little by little, bit by bit. Mark
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Rajeev |
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Posts: 474 ( 4-May-2008 16:15:03) |
Whether the Chinese can build a super or mini carriers not the question. Even if one is built, it probably would be a Russian copy. In fact, China is still
heavily dependent on technology imports from Russia and Ukraine but claims it has all. Because of China's currect financial capacity, it buys technology
off the shelf, just like its first man space flight, the Russian space capsule and space suits atop on a Chinese long march rocket. In another instance, J10
China's so-called advanced fighter is an Israeli Lavi programme bought secretly from them after it was scrapped. It buys Russian destroyers and then makes
copies of them in chinese versions or just shooting down some satellite in space does not makes it an achievement.. In reality, the whole Chinese defence
industry has lot to catch up to meet the best there is.
In my opinion, they are lacking far behind in terms of technology compared to US, Japan or India, Chinese carrier will only be a big easy target out in the sea waiting to be hit. It does not have what it takes to operate a carrier in the absence of the necessary supporting elements or vessels to sustain a carrier operation. Why, simply Chinese Navy could not even have a simple technology to rescue or recover its downed pilot when it collided with a US Navy PC3 in the South China sea, to an extend it has to mobilise it entire fishing fleet to look for the pilot. Let them built it and we will see them in action! |
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eeyylx |
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Posts: 3 ( 5-May-2008 02:12:39) |
I think there is a lack of understanding of Chinese capability and its technology.
I am working in department of electronic at University of nottingham. Most of my collegue believe that top Chinese colleges have the best equipments in the world. The chinese gov spend more on science and technology than UK. china is one of leading country in telecommunication research. It has the biggest ship yards in the world , capable of making VLCC, container ship and LNGs. Recently the china has successfully aquired the 12 inch IC production line. (very few country has such facilities. I really hope UK rethink its strategy on Chinese relationship. India is far behind China in almost every aspects. Today we have 7 destroyers with displacement of over 7000 tons. MORE THAN ANY OTHER EU COUNTRIES !!!!! |
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eeyylx |
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Posts: 4 ( 5-May-2008 02:21:15) |
Why, simply Chinese Navy could not even have a simple technology to rescue or recover its downed pilot when it collided with a US Navy PC3 in the South China
sea, to an extend it has to mobilise it entire fishing fleet to look for the pilot.
=========== China never send any fishing fleet out. In fact over the yrs China has changed a lot. Since 2001 incident chinese air force and navy have been rebuild. Over 7000 tons ship : ( with middle range anti air plane missile and VLS) 136,137,138,139,115,116,168,169,170,171 over 4000 tons escorts 525,526,530, 5**,5**(with VLS , K28 helicpter, 730 gun, 3D rader) over 3000 tons too many are build !!! from 520 to 528 ( type 053H2) from 510 to 520 ( type 053H1 may be??) |
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eeyylx |
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Posts: 5 ( 5-May-2008 02:25:03) |
The speed that chinese navy grow up is unseen.
most of destroyers are replaced recently and Type 054 escort has been put into massive production. Five are built. The submarine fleet grow even faster!! 039, 093,094 are all in production. |
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eeyylx |
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Registered Member
Posts: 6 ( 5-May-2008 02:31:03) |
The russian CV provides nothing for chinese navy.
russian tech is behind china ( especially the electronic ) China does not buy too many russian weapon. because the russians have very little to offer. |
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seasick |
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Posts: 4639 ( 6-May-2008 17:06:45) |
India has been warming up to the USA because they see China as a potential threat. Indonesia is unconfortable with China as is Vietnam.
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Rajeev |
China technology | ||
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Posts: 475 ( 7-May-2008 18:09:08) |
Hello everyone!
If you follow defense news, China has been one of the single largest client for Russian weaponry amounting for 60 percent of Russian arms for the past few years in a row. The Chinese navy also known to received twelve Kilo Class 877/636 diesel submarines and four
Type 956E/EM destroyers, (probably copies of it are being built secretly somewhere within this secretive communist nation) together with other naval subsystems
for Chinese carriers.
Trickery is another form of China technology; it approached Russian Phazotron Radar Design
Bureau to help the PLA-AF to upgrade their F8II fighters. With this purchase of two ZHUK-8II airborne radars from Phazotron and with a promise to buy at least
100 of the radar devices, China never placed follow up order citing that it was not suitable and had technical problems. Couple of years later, Russians
noticed that it was fitted into its new Chinese F8IIM fighter rolling off the production line as their latest technology as a new "indigenous
multifunction radar". Now, that is China technology!
Next time, when China reveals new system, don't forget to make a comparison with Russian system, perhaps it maybe theirs. Cheers!
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Rajeev |
Chinese Navy | ||
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Posts: 476 ( 7-May-2008 18:19:31) |
For your information, the biggest and best shipyard is Hundai Shipyard in S.Korea, not China so check your facts properly.
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eeyylx |
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Registered Member
Posts: 10 ( 7-May-2008 23:43:49) |
China technology
1: china has the second biggest spending on science and technology 2: china is now making more IC (CHIPS) than india or UK. 3: china is a big player in telecommunication industry. In fact UK and many european countries buy the chinese made 3G network. 4: the biggest ship yard will soon be in china. ( shanghai chong ming island ) chinese industry 1: china is the second biggest car maker in the world 2: china is capable of making jet engine WS10 ( in full production ) 3: china has deployed the second genneration of sattleite guidance system 4: china has much more experience in space industry 5: china is the second bigggest ship building industry 6: china is the country making AWACS , air to air fuel tanker , active radar guide air to air missile . the chinese defense spending is just behind US. these are the facts |
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eeyylx |
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Registered Member
Posts: 11 ( 7-May-2008 23:50:01) |
Indians are a key driving force in creation of technology which is internationally reputed for especially in IT, electronics, enginnering. It does not spy or
steal technology from their employers, nor involved at hacking and destroying systems.
=========================== indians have very llittle electronic or IT industry. if you search on google , you may find that there are more IC fabs and telecommunication companies in china than any where else in the world except US. ( hua wei , ZTE. they are the two very big players in the market and both of them are from china) The only reason why many people are keen on indian technoloy is its politic system. but politics are not science. Actually UK's vodefone is one of the biggest customer of hua wei which supplies the CDMA or GSM network hardwares. |
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