http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/sbd-5.pdf
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/f4f-4.pdf
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/pby-6a.pdf
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Gernsback |
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Posts: 237 (30-Apr-2008 05:37:18) |
The ranges look like they are one way ranges, the combat radius of an SBD with a five hundred pound bomb is 260 nautical miles (420 with two external tanks).
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/sbd-5.pdf http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/f4f-4.pdf http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/pby-6a.pdf |
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Dolphinstriker |
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Posts: 1819 (30-Apr-2008 06:29:19) |
Real world too hard? Stay in statistical fantasy land if you must. But while so doing, you might look up the distance to targets in a couple of other real world carrier battles and see if you can draw comfort from them. You claim only "real world" numbers mean anything, then fail to cite any to prove your point; is the real world too hard for you, as well? I cited sources, but I'm not claiming they are infallible, only that they are all I have. Given the land-based planes available to Midway's air group, I find it difficult to believe that any informed person could seriously think Kido Butai's planes could attack Midway from outside Midway's reach. Can you name a real world event where the Japanese were able to take advantage of their alleged carrier strike aircraft "range advantage" and hit a target without being attacked in return? It has been observed (by you possibly) that there was no knowledge of what airplanes were there. Probably true in the details, but surely there was an educated guess. Well, if there was, what was it? What did Nagumo and his air staff think they knew, or could guess, about Midway's air defenses? Maybe that's the answer to the question; Nagumo didn't try to stay outside Midway's range because he intuited that he would be attacked at any distance at which he could reasonably launch his own strike. I don't know and neither, apparently, do you. I think it had to do with lack of intelligence on what types of aircraft were actually on Midway, a feeling that he couldn't possibly out-range land-based aircraft, and possibly the fact that Nagumo's force was a day late compared to the invasion force. I know if I was in Nagumo's place, I certainly wouldn't want to make a costly long range attack; I'd try to preserve my strike and fighter aircraft as much as possible for the carrier battle that was scripted in Yamamoto's plan. |
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StewartG |
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Posts: 497 (30-Apr-2008 13:30:42) |
I hesitate to involve myself in this one because it's not really in my expertise. However I recall reading, either here or over at warships1, that although IJN aircraft had a theoretical (and often substantial, e'.g. Kate vs. TBD) range advantage over USN aircraft, in practice the differences were much less as even the IJN found it impractical to launch strikes at more than 250 miles and so had a doctrine of not doing so. Hope this helps, and apologies if I have garbled it. I have a feeling the original poster was Mark Horan, who is still around. |
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Glenn239 |
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Posts: 1064 (30-Apr-2008 18:49:46) |
Fletcher and Spruance sailed before the subs could get in place, so Nagumo did not find out that Fletcher was at sea with a nearly equal air force
until bombs started raining down on Akagi.
How far is it from Wake Island? Could Yamamoto have used G4M's to have conducted a long-range sweep near Midway? Skip both Coral Sea and Midway. Instead you land an entire infantry division at Milne Bay sometime in May 1942. An excellent tactical move to secure Port Moresby, but I'm not so certain it was the appropriate strategy for a power that had to secure some form of negotiated peace as quickly as possible. However I recall reading, either here or over at warships1, that although IJN aircraft had a theoretical (and often substantial, e'.g. Kate vs. TBD) range advantage over USN aircraft, in practice the differences were much less as even the IJN found it impractical to launch strikes at more than 250 miles and so had a doctrine of not doing so. Yes and no. Yes, the extra range didn't often translate into greater striking range. No, it was still an important tactical advantage, as IJN aircraft could remain aloft searching for friendly ships to land on (or enemy ships to attack) for a far longer period of time than their USN counterparts. The issue was, IIRC, why did not the IJN sit outside the range of Midway aircraft rather than sit waiting to be attacked. I think it's the case that Nagumo was careful to stay outside escort range of Midway, such that any bomber attacks on Kido Butai would have no fighter cover. |
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Dolphinstriker |
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Posts: 1821 (30-Apr-2008 19:42:36) |
How far is it from Wake Island? Could Yamamoto have used G4M's to have conducted a long-range sweep near Midway? It's about 1,200 nm from Wake to Midway, but to be effective such a search would have to cover an area about 500 nm further to the east. That's a huge amount of open ocean to search. I doubt whether the IJN had enough long range assets to make the effort effective. But I wonder why no aerial reconnaissance of Midway was attempted? Perhaps the Japanese felt it would tip their hand to suddenly start making overflights of Midway? Yes and no. Yes, the extra range didn't often translate into greater striking range. No, it was still an important tactical advantage, as IJN aircraft could remain aloft searching for friendly ships to land on (or enemy ships to attack) for a far longer period of time than their USN counterparts. But the tactical "advantages" you mention only applied if the Japanese launched their strikes from about the same range as their opponents. And as I have pointed out, attempting to take advantage of a long range strike had it's costs too. |
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Dolphinstriker |
Nagumo Report | ||
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Posts: 1822 (30-Apr-2008 20:18:12) |
The issue was, IIRC, why did not the IJN sit outside the range of Midway aircraft rather than sit waiting to be attacked. It's instructive to read the Nagumo Report in this regard. http://www.history.navy.mil/library/special/midway.htm#p11 It states that, " (g) The enemy's attempt to counterattack with use of shore based aircraft could be neutralized by our cover fighters and AA fire." The Japanese estimated the air defenses of Midway as follows; " Estimate of existing conditions there were as follows: (a) Air strength: 1 Recco. Flying Boats 2 squadrons. Army Bombers 1 squadron. Fighters 1 squadron. The above estimated strength could be doubled in an emergency." This was fairly accurate. "Actually there were at Midway on June 3d 30 PBY's; representing two and a half squadrons, one Marine Fighting Squadron of 28 planes, and one Marine Dive Bombing Squadron of 34 planes, plus 21 Army bombers (4 B-26's and 17 B-17's) and 6 Navy TBF's, which had been brought up from Hawaii." But the Japanese also realized that Midway's air defenses could be quickly reinforced from Hawaii, "g) Air strength in the Hawaii area was estimated to be as follows: Flying Boats About 60. Bombers About 100. Fighters About 200. These could be used for the speedy reinforcement of Midway." |
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bager1968 |
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Posts: 2910 (30-Apr-2008 20:39:58) |
The B-17C had a max internal payload of 4,800 lb. It had a max range of 3,400 miles, and a range of 2,400 miles with a 4,000-pound bombload. This means a maximum radius of 1,200 miles with 4,000 lb of bombs, and a
probable combat radius of more like 800-1,000 miles with 4,000 lb of bombs.
The B-17D had the same characteristics, trading the external bomb racks for a 10th crewman and two more .50 machine guns. The much-revised B-17E had a max internal payload of 8,000 lb. Normal range was 2,000 miles with 4,000 pounds of bombs. Maximum range was 3,300 miles. This gives a radius of 1,000 miles with 4,000 lb of bombs, and a combat radius of 600-800 miles with 4,000 lb of bombs. My source is Joe Baugher's website, and he cites these sources for his info: 1. Flying Fortress, Edward Jablonski, Doubleday, 1965. 2. Famous Bombers of the Second World War, Volume One, William Green, Doubleday, 1959. 3. Boeing Aircraft Since 1916, Peter M. Bowers, Naval Institute Press, 1989. 4. United States Military Aircraft Since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian, 1989. 5. Boeing B-17E and F Flying Fortress, Charles D. Thompson, Profile Publications, 1966. 6. American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Edition, Doubleday, 1982. 7. Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II, Military Press, 1989.
Last Edited By: bager1968
1-May-2008 20:25:36.
Edited 1 times.
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Dolphinstriker |
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Posts: 1823 ( 1-May-2008 19:40:01) |
The Japanese planes knew that they had an appreciable advantage in strike range and were used to making long range strikes, yet Nagumo moved his fleet to within range of Midway's planes and thus had to defend itself from a strike when it really didn't have to. Why did Nagumo do this when he could have just as well waited until after his first strike had returned from taking out Midway's airfacilities (and thus crippled Midway's offensive capabilities) before exposing his fleet (and its air operations) to the bother of a potencial strike from Midway? John Prados, in "Combined Fleet Decoded" page 316, mentions a radio message sent by Nagumo to Combined Fleet on May 16, stating his intention to close Midway and begin air attacks two days before the scheduled invasion, "from a point fifty miles northwest of "MI". "MI" was the Japanese code designator for Midway during the operation. The message was intercepted and decoded by Nimitz's intelligence people at Pearl Harbor. If this is accurate, then it becomes obvious that Nagumo's air staff felt that, when it came to launching air strikes, the closer the better, and they discounted any real, or perceived, "range advantage" in favor of the advantages of short range air strikes. This accords with the later US practice relative to carrier air support of invasions, of positioning the close air support carriers just over the horizon from the invasion target. Of course, by that time, the USN had the luxury of using CVE's for close support and keeping it's fleet carriers much further out to sea. |
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bager1968 |
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Posts: 2914 ( 1-May-2008 20:24:21) |
The closer you are to the target, the shorter the flights and the more strikes you can get in.
Besides, from 50 miles, the IJN fighters could be operating over the airfields at Midway, and thus destroy every aircraft when it lands to refuel. |
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Dolphinstriker |
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Posts: 1824 ( 1-May-2008 21:49:35) |
The closer you are to the target, the shorter the flights and the more strikes you can get in. Exactly, and the fewer planes you lose to damage and poor over-water navigation. So the question becomes not why didn't Nagumo strike from further out, but why did he launch his air strike from a distance of approximately 190 miles? I think the answer to that lies in the fact that his force departed from it's base a day late, and Yamamoto refused to delay the invasion by even a day. Thus, Nagumo, in order to adhere to the schedule, was forced to launch about 140 miles further out than he would have liked. The initial strike took longer because of the longer distance flown and Nagumo was presented with the dilemma of whether to sacrifice the aircraft which had hit Midway and were returning, or to immediately begin to spot and launch a strike against the US carriers which had been detected in the meantime. It's interesting to speculate on the outcome, if Nagumo had been able to launch his initial air strike from much closer to Midway. |
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