| Author | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
CVA02 |
|||
|
Posts: 364 ( 6-Apr-2008 23:13:13) |
"Quote: Without doubt the most chilling find in the debris field was the presence of five of Sydney's lifeboats."
http://www.findingsydney.com/gallery.asp
|
||
chrisRoach |
|||
|
Posts: 108 ( 7-Apr-2008 07:49:42) |
CVA02 wrote: Certainly is a haunting sight...
Your Text Signature ...
|
||
NewGolconda |
|||
|
Posts: 3246 ( 7-Apr-2008 09:57:39) Commonwealth Moderator |
Is it just me or is that exactly the wrong word to use. I understood his majesties ships of the early WWII period carried ships boats and carley floats, but no
life boats.
|
||
Mark E Horan |
|||
|
Posts: 350 ( 7-Apr-2008 17:17:13) |
Gents;
More thoughts IMHO, it was not just the likely instantaneous loss of command & the conn when the bridge was hit in the third salvo, but the rapidly expanding effect of the continued hits taking out the DCT et al. combined with the torpedo explosion that certainly knocked out "A" & "B" turrets (they did not fire thereafter) but likely breached the bulkheads in front of and behind "A" turret and the resulting flooding, combined with the continued shelling and light flak guns taking out any scurrying topside that likely eliminated the forward damage control parties entirely. When the Seagull on the cat was taken out and the midship's section of the ship became engulfed in flames, the two ends of the ship would have become significantly isolated. It would have taken some time for the Commander (assuming he survived the shelling aft) to realize that the command had actually fallen to him. The Germans never noted an increase in speed but rather, at 1745, a course change. The attempt to cross the enemy's stern to possibly bring the disengaged secondary guns, AA MGs, and torpedo tubes into action at close range makes good sense. However, it is, again IMO, highly likely that the command aft had no idea of the damage forward, and the failure to stop would have exacerbated the damage to the forward bulkheads while, at the same time, there was likely no one available to attempt to shore them up. Interestingly, the torpedoing of HMAS Sydney presents in interesting paradox. The Navy Yard in Washington DC had an interesting loose leaf compilation of torpedo damage summaries to warships of all nations in WWII. I spent a long time examining it once and was amazed to discover that in virtually every case studied, any ship cruiser sized or smaller that was hit by a torpedo was stopped very quickly thereafter, either by the direct damage of the hit or by the shock effect on the machinery and circuits. The fact that Sydney was not either stopped or even slowed down would have had the effect of greatly magnifying the resultant damage to the ships structure. This damage, IMO, was further magnified by the explosion, albeit on a small scale, of the powder and shells in the structure of "A" turret, which is clearly blown out, and clearly happened later that the visible explosive destruction of "B" turret by the shell hit as that was noted in every German account and all they noted of "A" turret was that, after the torpedo hit, it did not fire again. Also, notes were posted on the Sydney site that 5 of the 9 ship's boats were found. Two were lying on each other, and the top one was clearly burned out, as must have been the Seagull which was but an engine and a some framing. So clearly the German account of the raging midship's fire is also verified, as are the destruction of at least some of the lifeboats she carried. Further, without power and cranes, those heavier ones seen relatively intact were unlaunchable Mark E. Horan |
||
robertf2 |
|||
|
Posts: 318 ( 8-Apr-2008 00:07:52) |
NewGolconda wrote: Exactly. HMAS Sydney was not a cruise liner.
|
||
NewGolconda |
|||
|
Posts: 3248 ( 8-Apr-2008 00:25:08) Commonwealth Moderator |
Carley floats were I believe launched by removing a pin and striking with a small mallet secured to the aperatus. Or something of that sort.
IMHO the small number of survivors is explained by sydney steaming away, highly damaged. At some point in the evening, in the worsening weather there was a catastrophic structural failure around A mounting where the torpedo damage was. This damage allowed sudden flooding of a significant portion of the ship and the ship settled quickly. A very small number of survivors make it into the water, and the poor conditions and remotness deals with the rest. |
||
jim3au |
White Flag | ||
|
Posts: 1419 ( 8-Apr-2008 05:33:52) |
Mark said,
"For the record, I don't believe for a second that Detmer's raised the white flag or open fire with any weapons without the German Battle Ensign flying." Why not? Exactly when should the German Flag have been raised? I am not specifically casting aspersions on the German Captain, Detmers, rather I am judging him by myself. He had plenty of warning that a cruiser was chasing him and by the time that she caught up, all guns should have been manned. The Germans had practised clearing the guns of camouflage rapidly in their role as a disguised raider. Some of the torpedo tubes launched below the waterline. I would have been sorely tempted to launch the torpedo and then run up the German flag. According to the Germans, the first weapons fired were the heavy antiaircraft guns and they were fired at the bridge. Clearly the aim of the first rounds was reduce command and control. How can you be certain that Detmers did not fudge raising the German flag?
Last Edited By: jim3au
8-Apr-2008 21:52:27.
Edited 1 times.
|
||
Mark E Horan |
|||
|
Posts: 351 ( 8-Apr-2008 18:35:11) |
Jim;
Detmers, like the other HSK captains, served in a service that, while young, had in two wars established high traditions of honour in combat, especially so on that type of ship. Given the odds he faced, Detmers had no illusions as to the likely outcome. Even the most favorable of scenarios was going to see his ship lost. The only thing he was likely to carry from the battle as his personal honour and that of the Kriegsmarine - something it had a history of doing in hopeless situations. This alone is enough to convince me that he never considered contravening the rules of war in any scenario. Detmers could never, even in his wildest dreams, have imagined a scenario where the Australian cruiser would be sunk and all her crew lost. Thus, if he raised the white flag and then later his colors, or fired with anything but the Kriegsmarine Ensign flying, he would have lost the only thing this action would have left him with - his honour. Nothing in Detmers career prior, or after the action with HMAS Sydney convinces me that he would have taken that path. Further, there is little doubt based on the design and battle history of the HSK ships in two wars that indicates that the raising of their colors took any longer than the unmasking of their guns - about 6 seconds. Whatever six seconds could have bought him in the action, it could not be anticipated that it would change the likely results. To willingly sacrifice his personal honor for than does not seem to be a trade that he, or any other career naval officer that had reached command grade, would have made. Heck, I never made command grade and I know I never would have taken that path. That's why I don't buy that he did so. I think he honorably played his "hands" to the hilt in a game with a very strange set of rules - but he didn't cheat. Mark |
||
bager1968 |
|||
|
Posts: 2886 ( 9-Apr-2008 02:28:56) |
Keep in mind that the German Navy, as the service most populated by long-service personnel at all levels and ranks, was also the least populated by members of the Nazi party.
Most people judge all Germans (and all sectors of the German military) in WW2 by the worst of them... willing members of the Nazi party and especially the SS... but this is a very inaccurate view, as most Germans and German military men were just as human, humane, and honorable as any other Europeans or Americans... they just were fighting for their country, regardless of the fact that their country was, at that time, ruled by vicious monster-humans. |
||
jim3au |
Nazis | ||
|
Posts: 1427 ( 9-Apr-2008 13:41:18) |
I might be the only fellow in this discussion who regularly had beers with an ex-driver of an SS Panzer. He was a lovely fellow [with a very nice daughter
too]. I do not need convincing that Germans were good blokes. And I understand that this was early in the war before sailors were being machine gunned when
they lost their ship.
What I was wondering was what cheating would look like. About ten years ago, I got some bee in my bonnet and borrowed the three books the local library had on the loss of the Sydney. Detmer was a driven man and wanted to be the captain of the best raider in the German Navy.
|
||