Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

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REMATOG	Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser	Lead	[-]
Posts: 93 (31-Mar-2008 23:27:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If someone can please design a pre-world war one armored cruiser, design date of mid-1910, laid down late1911, launched early 1913 and commissioned in late 1913. This would be a class of 4 ships (dates are for first in class, last you be about 1 year later). Design requirements: Main battery, 4x 2 gun turrets, 21 cm L/45 C04 (8.2") , in line superfiring arrangement (similar to Konig class of about same date). Secondaries, 8x single gun casement mounted (4 per side) 15 cm L/45 C06. (These are same gun types as Blucher of 2 years before) Armor: 6" belt (2" ends), 1.5" deck, 7" main turret face and Barbette, 6" sides, 7" conning tower, good (for the era) compartmentalization. (this is a little lighter then the Blucher). Engines: turbine, coal fire boilers. Design Max speed, 30 kts . Range 6000 miles. I have in mind a smaller (around 15k tons, but you tell me) ship then Blucher, and much smaller then current Battlecrusiers. Capable of dominating British Town class light cruisers, and still fast enough to run from pre-war British battlecrusiers. These are for a story I'm beginning to write and yes, I have reasons why and economics of how they could have been built. Thanks Rematog
borys68		#1	[-]
Posts: 2503 ( 1-Apr-2008 07:45:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ahoj! Forget the 30 knots speed. SMS Blucher, Deutschland Armoured Cruiser laid down 1910 Displacement: 11 931 t light; 12 380 t standard; 13 812 t normal; 14 957 t full load Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught 741,47 ft / 528,22 ft x 67,26 ft x 24,61 ft (normal load) 226,00 m / 161,00 m x 20,50 m x 7,50 m Armament: 8 - 8,27" / 210 mm guns (4x2 guns), 282,57lbs / 128,17kg shells, 1910 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount Aft Main mounts separated by engine room 8 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102,98lbs / 46,71kg shells, 1910 Model Breech loading guns in casemate mounts on side, all amidships 8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas 8 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 20,79lbs / 9,43kg shells, 1910 Model Quick firing guns in casemate mounts on side ends, evenly spread 8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas 8 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 20,79lbs / 9,43kg shells, 1910 Model Quick firing guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts Weight of broadside 3 417 lbs / 1 550 kg Shells per gun, main battery: 85 4 - 17,7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 6,00" / 152 mm 360,00 ft / 109,73 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m Ends: 6,00" / 152 mm 168,00 ft / 51,21 m 11,00 ft / 3,35 m Upper: 6,00" / 152 mm 260,00 ft / 79,25 m 4,00 ft / 1,22 m Main Belt covers 105% of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Torpedo Bulkhead: 1,50" / 38 mm 275,00 ft / 83,82 m 23,00 ft / 7,01 m - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 7,00" / 178 mm 6,00" / 152 mm 7,00" / 178 mm 3rd: 5,00" / 127 mm - - - Armour deck: 1,50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 7,00" / 178 mm Machinery: Coal fired boilers, steam turbines, Direct drive, 3 shafts, 66 642 shp / 49 715 Kw = 28,00 kts Range 6 600nm at 12,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 2 578 tons (100% coal) Complement: 636 - 828 Cost: £1,200 million / $4,802 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 427 tons, 3,1% Armour: 3 730 tons, 27,0% - Belts: 1 698 tons, 12,3% - Torpedo bulkhead: 351 tons, 2,5% - Armament: 905 tons, 6,6% - Armour Deck: 690 tons, 5,0% - Conning Tower: 87 tons, 0,6% Machinery: 3 029 tons, 21,9% Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 595 tons, 33,3% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 881 tons, 13,6% Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1,1% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 14 750 lbs / 6 691 Kg = 52,2 x 8,3 " / 210 mm shells or 2,1 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17 Metacentric height 3,7 ft / 1,1 m Roll period: 14,7 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,44 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,01 Hull form characteristics: Hull has raised forecastle Block coefficient: 0,553 Length to Beam Ratio: 7,85 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 22,98 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees Stern overhang: 213,25 ft / 65,00 m Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length): - Stem: 26,25 ft / 8,00 m - Forecastle (20%): 26,25 ft / 8,00 m (18,93 ft / 5,77 m aft of break) - Mid (50%): 18,93 ft / 5,77 m - Quarterdeck (19%): 18,93 ft / 5,77 m - Stern: 18,93 ft / 5,77 m - Average freeboard: 20,39 ft / 6,22 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 141,8% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141,0% Waterplane Area: 24 863 Square feet or 2 310 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103% Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 570 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,95 - Longitudinal: 1,53 - Overall: 1,00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent Borys
Jefgte		#2	[-]
Posts: 608 ( 1-Apr-2008 10:12:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A better AC than the real Blucher, Borys. Certainly more useful for Adm. Hipper & Adm. Scheer Hmmm ... the seaboat quality is very short. Jef
borys68		#3	[-]
Posts: 2504 ( 1-Apr-2008 10:27:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ahoj! Thank you for the compliment. Remember the weight savings on using turbines and 2 years on engine year ... Myself I don't like her At that size I'd go for 12x170mm, or make her slightly larger and 4x2xs9,5" (mini von der Tann) OR the original 6x2x8,2". Maybe a Kaiser laout, with 5x2x8,2" ... I know seakeeping sucks. But that's at the full 28 knots. Range is IMO OK for a heavy scout for the North Sea. British Dreadnaught Gunned Armoured Cruisers can't catch it, not if they are just as fast. To catch these you need R&R or the Hood. Borys
Red Admiral		#4	[-]
Posts: 1840 ( 1-Apr-2008 12:08:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	British Dreadnaught Gunned Armoured Cruisers can't catch it, not if they are just as fast. To catch these you need R&R or the Hood. Factor in the quality of coal, condition of the ship's bottoms and the weather and you'll find that it would be fairly easy to catch it in one of the Invincibles. How does it fulfill the role of fleet scout when it can't get through Beatty's BCS? Scouting against light cruisers is fine, but it just isn't possible against the BCS.
Dave Bender	Factor in the quality of coal	#5	[-]
Posts: 6369 ( 1-Apr-2008 15:07:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If you are smart enough to build a better AC then you are smart enough to change a lot of more obvious things. Nothing prevents the German navy from creating a war reserve stockpile of anthracite coal. For that matter nothing prevents the German navy from creating a war reserve of fuel oil as Britain did historically. Endurance, sea keeping and stability are consistent with historical HSF standards. Minor nit picks. German ships laid down after 1908 should take advantage of the larger 50cm torpedo. Especially when using underwater tubes as these cannot be easily changed. By 1910 a German ship propulsion plant should be using oil spray.
borys68		#6	[-]
Posts: 2505 ( 1-Apr-2008 19:35:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ahoj! OK - bad coal will cut down top speed to 26 knots. The bottom would be as clean as a Prom Queen's. In good weather speed advantage of the BCS is negligible. And in such circumstance these ships run for the main body. In heavy weather ... will they be able to pursue in heavy weather? What's the visibility? How accurate their guns are? Yes, these ships are to beat off Brtish light cruisers. Dealing with the BCS is nt their job. In such case they are to "keep their distance". BTW - I believe that a 15000 ship, with 4/5x2x9,5", with good fire control up to 20K yards, can go toe to toe with the I's. Borys
REMATOG	Thanks for the help	#7	[-]
Posts: 94 ( 1-Apr-2008 19:43:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks for the help. If possible, I still feel the class needs 30 kts. Could us oil sprays to acheive this. And/or reduce main battery to 3x2 8.2". I a The class is designed as a replacement to Scharnhorst class for foreign service and to be lead ship in small raiding forces (one CA, 1-3 CL's) As such, I feel 30 knots is needed to avoid the pre-war British BC's and be able to catch 28 kt CL's. The 8.2" was chosen to be capable of killing CL's and would be a logical follow-on to the Blucher. I agree, 9.5" would be nice, but I was trying to keep weight and size down. This ship is NOT meant to fight BC's, but the 9.5" battery would help against other existing CA's But with 30 kts, no existing CA could force battle, so they could be avoided. The non-european use lead to coal fired design, more readily available in this era. Sprays don't require as many tons of oil to refill the bunkers and only need to be used in emergencies. The armor thickness was chosed to resist 6" CL fire at medium range. If slightly thinner, this would be acceptable to gain 30kts. Thanks again for the help Rematog
borys68		#8	[-]
Posts: 2506 ( 1-Apr-2008 20:21:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ahoj! I now understand the requeriments better. 30 knots at this point in time came at a hefty cost in displacement. Borys
E F Draaijers		#9	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 164 ( 1-Apr-2008 20:57:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Perhaps some suggestion to drop the 5.9 inch secondary gun in favour for both protection and enginepower and add some more light rapidfire guns, some with AA capacity, such as the 88mm guns of the period 1910. The 8.2 inch gun can be modified to fire at a higher rate of fire to compensate the loss of the secondary guns volume. A ship of this configuration is very simmilar to a much heavy cruiser of the Washington Treaty period, but much heavier armored. With a displacement in the reach of some 16,000 tons at least it is second only to the post WW2 class Des Moines class only.
Dave Bender	30 knots at this point in time hefty cost in displacement	#10	[-]
Posts: 6371 ( 1-Apr-2008 21:24:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree with this. 28 kts is the proper speed for a 1910 cruiser. The additional 2 kts are not worth the price. If anything you should improve sea keeping a bit so you can maintain the max speed in rough weather. The German 21cm/45 and twin turret were a superb cruiser weapons system during this time period. I would not change it. Just use the same twin turrets as SMS Blucher. You don't need large secondary guns on a cruiser. I would consider going to 10.5cm/45 rifles as a secondary weapon. The smaller secondary guns could be moved to the deck, eliminating the need for an upper armor belt and providing better fields of fire.

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Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

Design Request: German pre-World War One Armored Cruiser

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