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FreeloaderUK |
Firepower over protection |
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Posts: 76 (14-Mar-2008 20:04:34) |
if you got to choose between 16", 15" or 14" guns would you pick the lighter guns in order to have extra armour or pick the more powerful guns
& have less protection.
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emc |
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Posts: 3577 (14-Mar-2008 21:40:18) |
I think I'd need more context to make the decision.
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RK |
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Posts: 219 (14-Mar-2008 23:51:58) |
I would give KGV more fuel, better underwater protection and improved AAA before I would consider any move to 15 or 16 inch guns.
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Plamen1974 |
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Posts: 2028 (15-Mar-2008 00:37:41) |
How will you keep KGV within 35 000 limit or with extra 10% in the weight if you change the design.AA mounting and better protection would add more
weight........
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SeaTurtle Prince |
Quantify | ||
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Posts: 278 (15-Mar-2008 03:27:16) |
Are the choices:
16" guns and armor against 14" vs 15" guns and armor against 15" vs 14" guns and armor against 16" or some other combination? If the timeframe is KGV design, and the choices are from the above, I would go with the 15". |
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RK |
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Posts: 220 (15-Mar-2008 04:09:25) |
With hindsight, I would go with three triple 14 inch turrets and delete the aircraft fittings. I don't think she would weigh any less but she would be a
better balanced ship and hopefully her turrets would be less likely to break down...
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FreeloaderUK |
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Posts: 77 (15-Mar-2008 09:21:24) |
yes sea turtle- thas pretty much the choice
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E F Draaijers |
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Registered Member
Posts: 147 (15-Mar-2008 12:18:24) |
The HMS King George V was indeed designed to be able to withstand 16 inch gunfire of the original design (Not the more advanced developments in the "super
heavy" shells from after 1941.) Opposed to the traditional 16 inch shell of somewhere around 2100 lbs, it was protected pretty well for the vitals,
although large parts of secondary importance were almost unprotected, as with all battleships following the "All or Nothing" principle.
Underwaterprotection was originally designed as prtetty good, although the secondary electrical systems, powering the pumps, were a major weakness, as HMS
Prince of Wales was to experience. (The system was actually better in performance than contemporary designs of either France, Italy, Japan and USA. Only the
German system was better.)
With an armament of 10 guns of 14 inch the King George V class was capable of defeating all contemporary battleships, sicne these were not protected that well against her relatively heavy 1560 lbs shells, since most had beed designed to withstand the smaller version of ±1300 lbs, originally used for older 14 inch gunned vessels. So a King George V could penetrate armor of any other BB, exept Yamato, at most ranges, while her armor could only be defeated at very short range vertically and extreme long range horizontally. In theory she was very well equipped in this way, but other reasons made her a much less efficient vessel, mainly her modest range and limmited fuelcapacity. The opposite is the USN aproach of less armor and more firepower. This would make the vessels more hard hitting with less shots, but vulnerable to damage, when actually hit themselves. Luckily they never had such experience against opposing BB's, but were mostly used in a secondary role as escort or shorebombardment support. |
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Fermi2 |
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Posts: 3229 (15-Mar-2008 16:54:14) |
E F Draaijers wrote: Uh 8 of the most modern USN BBs were protected against a larger 16 inch shell than the KGV and protected against any foreign shell short of the Yamato. So how exactly were they lucky?
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jlyons97 |
"the secondary electrical systems, powering the pumps," | ||
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Posts: 1349 (15-Mar-2008 18:35:51) |
I would be curious how the term 'secondary electrical' system is defined.
Given you clear statement rank-ordering electrical systems, please give at least some general details on each that shaped your opinion. |
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Dave Bender |
15" guns and armor against 15" | ||
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Posts: 6308 (15-Mar-2008 19:33:43) |
My choice. It gives you a lot of firepower and a lot of armor protection.
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1Big Rich |
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Posts: 1842 (15-Mar-2008 19:57:03) |
Since this is strictly an opinion question, my initial thought is the first, most important job of a battleship is to kill other ships, especially other
battleships, as quickly as possible. I think firepower should be the premium over protection within the confines of infrastructure (ports, slipways, drydocks,
canals), unless there is an external non-military pressure (i.e., a treaty) limiting the design.
Balance might be desirable, even feasible, but given the decaying international situation in the second half of the thirties, the increasing likelihood that potential enemies will be throwing off the limits of the treaties and the threat of war increasing the potential for combat with such unrestricted ships, the focus should be in favor of inflicting as much harm as possible on such ships. However, when applied to the RN, there are extenuating circumstances outweighing conventional wisdom. Among them the RN had financial issues. It was unable to afford to update all its capital ships. Also those same issues had lead to the some of the R's being in a poor material state with only one, Royal Oak, had really been updated in the 30s. (Even then, she didn't receive increased elevation to her main armament, though I digress....) Also, the need to replace the R class means that a new a new class of capital ship needs to be laid down as quickly as possible. The extension of the building holiday increased that pressure, and put the earliest possible replacement laying-down date at 01 January 1937. That meant the design had to be ready at that date. Second London further complicates the situation, taking the caliber of the 35,000 ton limit down from Washington/First London 16 inches to 14 inches. While Second London, Article 4, Part 2 said (2) No capital ship shall carry a gun with a calibre exceeding 14 in. (356 mm.); provided however that if any of the Parties to the Treaty for the Limitation of Naval Armament signed at Washington on 6 February 1922, should fail to enter into an agreement to conform to this provision prior to the date of the coming into force of the present Treaty, but in any case not later than 1 April 1937, the maximum calibre of gun carried by capital ships shall be 16 in. (406 mm.). the RN correctly felt it couldn't afford to wait those extra three months the bulk of its battlefleet being older than either the US or Japanese battlelines. Finally, diplomacy was a key to the Empire's strategy in the later half of the '30s to buy time to rearm. Diplomacy hoped to offset Germany with Italy until the Abyssinian crisis. And while it failed to keep Italy at the naval limitation table, it resulted it in the US agreeing to a lower caliber limit, but also yielded a limited German Navy. The RN very well couldn't go against the diplomacy carefully cultivated by the UK, nor could it even plan a ship in violation of that diplomacy. My thoughts, Big Rich
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E F Draaijers |
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Registered Member
Posts: 149 (15-Mar-2008 20:30:49) |
Officially items related to propulsion and main armament are considered primary issues on military vessels, all other items are secondary, such as
repairsystems and other things that make a ship running efficiently. Simply stated: a warship without propulsion cannot sail and without main armament cannot
fight (in its main function at least).
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E F Draaijers |
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Registered Member
Posts: 150 (15-Mar-2008 20:41:54) |
USN BB's were not at all protected against 16 inch fire, since only the frontal armor of the main turrets could resist a direct hit and nothing else, since
armor was too thin and poorly placed. Only for propaganda issues they were rated as invunerable to 16 inch fire, but in reality were designed to resist the old
14 inch shell of somewhere around 1300 lbs only. USS Iowa was designed and constructed to defeat the Kongo class fast BB's of Japan and was given extra
speed for this purpose only and not armored up to heavier standards. The canceled Montana would have been the only design to be able to resist 16 inch
shellfire at some part, since the horizontal armor was several inches thicker than on the previous designs.
To conclude with this: 5 inch deckarmor cannot resist the impact of shells of some 2000 lbs or bigger. (even the British 15 inch 1980 lbs shell could defeat such armor, as did the German 800 kg AP shell.) Only at shorter range the decks become invulnerable, due to the lesser angle of the incomming shelltrajectories. Even than the thin, although inclined, belts are to shallow to give much protection, since deep diving hits can easily penetrate the hull bellow it. They only cover some 20% of the side of the ship's hull and give space to 80% exposed to damage. |
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BOBC 59 |
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Posts: 1105 (15-Mar-2008 23:49:11) |
EF Draaijers
And u know because you also served on a fast battleship? What a bunch of dribble u put out you never have any thing good to say about the us if it was not for the us your home land today would probally ruled by germany or the russians so back off the negativity and thank the us for doing what it did with the other allies to rout them when called apon nuff said bobc
For those that fought for it,Freedom has a taste and meaning ,The protected will never know.
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ickysdad |
What a load of bull manure!!!!! | ||
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Posts: 3065 (16-Mar-2008 05:50:46) |
E F Draaijers wrote: As far as "only the turret faces could withstand 16" shellfire and not the sides or rear or top" well that's true for other navy's too. As far as the decks not being able to withstand 2000 lb.shells or even German 800 kilogram shells well against the Italian 15"/50 North Carolina's deck was safe out to about 32K over the machinery & it was even better over the mags while the KM's 15"/47 would only defeat her decks after 32-34K. South Dakota's & Iowa's decks are even better off. SoDak and Iowa had an IZ against 16"/45 2200 lb. shells from about 20-30K. |
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E F Draaijers |
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Registered Member
Posts: 151 (16-Mar-2008 12:28:09) |
I agree with the calculated numbers you refere to. Problem is however that the fact remains the decks were thin at only 5 inch maximum and shells often behave
different compared to the designed specifications. British battleships had 6 inch or more deckarmor in both Nelsons and King George V class, which is more than
an inch thicker than the US deckarmor. Both had a simmilar placement and could be compared therefore. German designs placed the armored deck much deeper in the
hull and cannot be compared to this therefore, since they were designed to absorb, rather than deflect incomming shells. Other nations post treaty designs
compare quite well to the Britisha and USN designs in layout, but differ in concept.
Theoretically the USN designs of South Dakota and Iowa were to be able to partly take on 16 inch shells smaller than their own heavy rounds, but only partly and only under perfect conditions. 14 inch rounds of around 1300 lbs were the main threath considered at the start of the design and the ships were build according to this. (Think about the main adversary Japan, who only had two 16.1 inch gunned ships and nine with 14 inch (exclududing IJN Hiei, which was still demiliterisd at the start of the construction of these eight ships.) North Carolina is an older design matched up to the British King George V class in concept, with heavier guns and slightly less speed and armor. |
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Plamen1974 |
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Posts: 2029 (16-Mar-2008 14:23:29) |
Nine 14 inch ships?? Fuso, Yamashiro, Ise, Hyuga, BC Kongo, Kirishima, Haruna - seven without Hiei. I consider KGV a good design - as firepower and protection,
i NC the firepower prevail over the protection. In SD and Iowa design the balance is relatively good, but the offensive capabilies still prevails. Richelieu
was good design. Bismarck had powerful for her caliber guns, and extremely good vertical protection for short and medium battle ranges and vulnurable over 20
000 yards.
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Red Admiral |
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Posts: 1830 (16-Mar-2008 14:47:46) |
The term protected is disingenious. None of these battleships have "protection" against heavy shells, but they are protected against them in various
circumstances.
The role of the protective scheme is to nullify the effect of a shells hit. Easiest way to do this is to keep the shell out of the ship. Unless you adopt massively thick armour this isn't a viable option. So protection is added inboard to compensate, e.g.inboard splinter plates around Vanguard's magazines. In this instance, the protection is in lessening the damage caused by a hit. The best protected of the treaty battleships against likely hits are the Littorios, mostly because of their extensive internal armouring. However, what is the value of armour if 1) you have stable propellant in shielded magazines thatis difficult to ignite and 2) have well subdivided machinery that is difficult to put out of action unelss from multiple shell hits. Lessons from WWII would indicate that speed, underwater protection and space for light AA were the most important attributes. Emphasise those on a hull, then add armament and enough armour to make sure you can keep firing. |
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1Big Rich |
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Posts: 1843 (16-Mar-2008 16:00:01) |
E F Draaijers wrote: [sarcarsm]I had no idea![/sarcasm] Mike, Call the Bureau of Construction and Repair and cancel that order for the barge with 12 x 18in/47s.... EFD, 'Battleship' implies a self-motive vessel. Though we did recently have an interesting coversation over of the Warship Projects Forums over how fast was fast enough for a 30s-40s BB...
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E F Draaijers |
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Registered Member
Posts: 152 (16-Mar-2008 19:51:04) |
Sorry for the inconvenience, I mentioned the total number of vessels of the IJN BB fleet, which was nine indeed with seven armed with 14 in main armament. IJN
Hiei was not listed as an effective offensive unit, since officially still a training ship.
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