SMS12 wrote:Haruna was hit by 11 bombs before sinking. Hiei was hit by about 28-38 8", and 70-74 5" shells. She was then hit by 1 500lb and 4+ 1000lb bombs, along with 3+ torpedoes and was then scuttled.
Kongos, hmm. The IJN sure used them hard but to what success? One gets crippled by CA fire and another goes down to two torps. I won't hold Kirishima's mauling by Washington against her. Few if any ships could take those hits from point blank range and sail away. They did have the blessing of speed but they retained their British BC heritage of having a glass jaw.
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 Creeping Death1929 |
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Posts: 972 (29-Feb-2008 07:04:50) |
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Red Admiral |
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Posts: 1823 (29-Feb-2008 10:56:52) |
Any answers???I measured it off some X-sections I have and the angle is closer to 14°-15° but I'll have another go later. |
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Desert Sailor |
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Posts: 1121 (29-Feb-2008 17:48:28) |
If we step back from a technical evaluation and examine the dreadnought battleship as a military and political phenomenon, I think the case can be made that none of them were underrated - that they were all, in fact, badly overrated. They never lived up to their billing as a decisive weapon of war, nor did they have any notably positive effects on the countries that invested so much to acquire them. The dreadnought battleship was a failure - trumped in the first war by the submarine, in the second by the aircraft.Hmmm.. I think in the given context Theodore does have a case here, or at least part of one. I'm not convinced that the battleship was completely trumped by the submarine in the first war, although the case for being trumped by aircraft and the carriers thereof in the second is pretty much airtight. The distant blockade of Germany by the Grand Fleet in WWI may not have been decisive in the Mahanian sense, but it certainly contributed to Germany's defeat. A case can be made that the BB as a giant, but well defended, target soaked up a fair old amount of enemy air effort during WWII- I'm thinking particularly of things like the Marianas Turkey Shoot here... doesn't negate Theodore's basic argument, and a giant AAA platform was certainly not the original intent of the beasties. In a more narrow context we can still have the over/under rated argument. charley aka Desert Sailor |
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dmilford |
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Posts: 1946 (29-Feb-2008 17:51:38) |
Theodore wrote: I think the same applies to the King in Chess.
Your Text Signature ...
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Dave Bender |
Scharnhorst Class | ||
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Posts: 6229 (29-Feb-2008 17:52:53) |
The Scharnhorst class fast BBs accomplished more for WWII Germany then the Bismarck class BBs and the Hipper class CAs put together. Many people scoff at their
being too heavily armored. However that armor served them well. These ships survived a lot of damage caused by shells, mines, torpedoes and aircraft bombs.
Kill record.
Aux Cruiser Rawalpindi. CV Glorious DD Ardent DD Acasta 115,600 tons of merchant shipping Not many dreadnoughts can claim to have sunk this many enemy ships. In fact not many WWII dreadnoughts can claim to have sunk any ships at all. |
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E F Draaijers |
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Registered Member
Posts: 137 (29-Feb-2008 20:25:15) |
I agree with this. The Scharnhorst class was very cleverly designed and with the ususal German strength of their ships, they were very hard to defeat by
whatever was thrown at them, although the price was they had to fight with the smallest caliber guns on any modern battleship in WW2. As a design, the
Scharnhorst class was propably what the Germans wanted in the Great War, meaning a relatively modest sized very fast and heavily armored battlecruiser with a
serious punch, although relatively more weight given to protection rather than armament. (Compared to contemporary USN ships, they were the opposite, since the
USN prefered the biggest and largest possible guns on the expense of protection and speed.) The British King George V class followed the same principles as the
Scharnhorst by sacreficing armament to protection, while the IJN simply created much bigger ships, almost twice the size of contemporary designs to maximize
protection AND amramment.
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Fermi2 |
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Posts: 3218 (29-Feb-2008 20:29:03) |
E F Draaijers wrote: Kindly prove your point about USN Vessels. IIRC the only shells their immunity zone were not designed against were their own and maybe the Yamato. (With the exception of the NC class of course) Also when are you going to tell this Nuclear Qualified Submariner why you believe you know anything about USN Submarines?Mike
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Joshua Kintner |
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Registered Member
Posts: 353 ( 1-Mar-2008 03:58:59) |
Espana was basically a coastal dreadnought, and a "neutrality enforcer". In wartime she would have been useful in either protecting the
ports of Spain from attack or safeguarding convoys into those same ports.
I had also added the IJN Nagato class to the equation. These ships were, and have been perhaps unfairly overshadowed by the much larger and more capable Yamato class battleships, but with decent speed, good armament, and good armored protection, these were still very capable and powerful battleships well into WW2. |
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kenBB48 |
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Posts: 85 ( 1-Mar-2008 10:55:05) |
I think the pre-war USN BBs as rebuilt are very underated everyone focuses on the post treaty ships but I think other than speed the older ships where just as
good and could hold thier own against most other BBs esp. the ones with the more modern fire control sets ie. West Virginia.
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Red Admiral |
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Posts: 1824 ( 1-Mar-2008 12:16:37) |
Garzke & Dulin along with M. J. Whitley say her belt( both main and decapping belts) both was sloped at 8 degrees while Erminio Bagnasco says 14 degrees for the main and 8 degrees for the decapping belt. From what diagrams I've seen it's more then 8 but substantially less then 14 degrees. Any answers???I measured it again off my X-sections. On one its around 17° and on the more detailed one it is 14°. Decapping plate seems to be inclined at the same angle. |
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