A dedicated destroyer killer to work in with other ships.

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JonSidneyB	A dedicated destroyer killer to work in with other ships.	Lead	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 1 (27-Feb-2008 11:45:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	While I don't know how to design a ship perhaps you can help. Lets say events unfold where the following are the facts. Destroyers have been a major difficulty for operations of several types. The current light cruisers were resonably successful at this task but fell victim to heavy cruiser fire. This new ship is not designed to counter heavy cruisers but has to operate in an environment that is heavy in both destoryers and cruisers. This ship is not a destoryer leader but is instead is a killer of destoryers that approach the fleet or unit it is attached to. This ship travels with a variety of ship types and is expected to blunt destroyer attacks. When heavier units arrive it can and will add to the fire of the unit but is not expected to destroy properly protected heavy cruisers and up but is expected to have a chance at surviving such encounters. This is not to be a balanced ship. The Brooklyn and Cleveland as well as other nations light cruisers were not protected as well as perhaps a Baltimore or some other heavy cruiser. The easy way out would be to take Baltimore and give it 4x3 6inch guns. This ship would better be able to take hits from other cruisers while still having a better rate of fire to blunt destroyer attacks but I am not sure if this would be optimal. How would you design a ship that travels with friendly heavy cruisers but is meant to overwhelm multiple destroyers yet survive when heavy cruisers hit the unit? It does not have the option of running away as it has to stay with the unit to protect it from destroyers.
E F Draaijers		#1	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 130 (27-Feb-2008 12:03:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A special Destroyer Killer is something quite strange and possibly not very logical as a purpose build vessel. A light cruiser can perform in such a role as it is flexible and strong in construction normally. The same light cruiser also has more to offer against other cruisers, since you are mistaken in the protectionscheme of heavy cruiser, which are normally identical to light cruisers (or you have to violate treaty agreements.) Besides that, destroyers are hard hitting, but vunlerable to damage, since they are not protected by armor and neither have a strong construction. All weight is mostly a compromise to engines first, and armament secondly, leaving less to the hull and other fittings. Any sort of hit wiul certainly damage a destroyer, no matter what kind of weapon hits, although the degree of damage may vary. Destroyers are very vulnerable to underwaterdamage, since they completely lack any underwaterprotectionsystem, because their hulls are too narrow to fit in such a system. Besides that, Destroyers are often used in ASW roles, but do not excel in this, since they always have to find a compromise in the kind of hardware they can fit into their hulls, which is always at the expenmse of another sort of weapon. Special ASW ships are usually better ASW ships and special AA ships perform better in their specific role. Destroyers normally cary a mixed weaponsoutfit, making them effective as multirole vessels, but not outstanding in one special role in most cases. Some are fitted with heavy torpedobatteries, but at the expense of either guns or ASW outfit. Modern submarines can be problematic to any WW2 period destroyer, so why not use the German Type XXI with advanced torpedoes to the Anti Destroyer role? It is quite good and can even outrun submerged most sorts of warships, other than destroyers, so it is no easy prey for specialized ASW vessels.
borys68		#2	[-]
Posts: 2433 (27-Feb-2008 12:04:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ahoj! In other words, you want a ship armoured against 8" fire, but armed with 5-6" guns. This is not good use of tonnage, IMHO. The ultimate destroyer killer, even if a tad expensive, was the Atlanta class. Borys
JonSidneyB		#3	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 3 (27-Feb-2008 12:17:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	My thinking could be very flawed. I had been doing alot of reading on various WW2 Pacific actions. I saw it several mentions that the 6 inch cruisers were very effective against destroyers. It seems that destroyers carrying the long lance in the early actions did a huge amount of damage. I saw that the Brooklyns and Clevelands were not as heavy and I assume not as well protected as the Baltimore Class. This made me think that if these cruisers are not as durable as the Baltimores that could be too easily lost in a mixed engagement and not be available to counter destroyers when needed. Again my thinking could be totally flawed. The Atlanta Class ships? I thought those ships were considered fragile? While it has a very high rate of fire with so many 5 inch guns It is not able to outrange destroyers with its guns. Wouldn't the Cleveland Class be a better destroyer killer than the Atlanta? Last Edited By: JonSidneyB 27-Feb-2008 12:34:13. Edited 1 times.
Dave Bender	The U.S. and everyone else	#4	[-]
Posts: 6218 (27-Feb-2008 15:07:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You need to divide the world into two parts - the U.S. and everyone else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_class_cruiser The U.S. GDP is so large compared to everyone else that they can afford to build dozens of 12,000 ton Cleveland class cruisers. If you've got the cash then by all means build them. The expensive Cleveland class cruisers were great for killing DDs and great for AA escort. The armor was heavy enough to also make them useful against enemy cruisers armed with 8" guns. Now for the rest of the world where defense needs are greater then the military budget. http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/lightcruiser/leipzig/tech.html I recommend a CL of about 7,500 std tons similiar to KM Leipzig. It has the firepower, armor and speed necessary for killing DDs in a relatively inexpensive package. Just don't plan on slugging it out with enemy cruisers.
splott	Just don't plan on slugging it out with enemy cruisers	#5	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 54 (27-Feb-2008 17:40:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Wouldn't the cruiser armament lead it in to the same miscalculation as many BC captains, getting into a fight against something it's not armored against. Perhaps arm it with destroyer armament but plenty of it, for example 12x12,7 cm L/45 C/36. Put them in DP mounts and you can drop the 88:s as well. Hmm just realized I'm suggesting the Atlanta class http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_class_cruiser
Dave Bender	Same miscalculation as many BC captains	#6	[-]
Posts: 6224 (27-Feb-2008 18:50:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This is a matter of operational doctrine. If it is clearly understood that a 7,500 ton CL has no business engaging CAs then it should not be an issue.
JonSidneyB		#7	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 6 (27-Feb-2008 20:51:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Even if you don't engage a Heavy does not mean that one does not try and engage you. Lets say you are in a unit with 3 Baltimores and one light cruiser and maybe 6 destroyers. Your unit perhaps is engaged by 4 heavy cruisers and 10 destroyers. Your light cruiser is needed to blunt the charge of those 10 destroyers so it has to participate. Just because it does not engage one of the heavies does not mean one of the heavies does not engage it. The added armor might give it just enough margin for it to try and manuver away from the heavies while still being able to engage the destroyers. If it is able to help neutralize the destroyer threat in this senario it might well be forced to assist the heavies against the other heavies. If it were up armored wouldn't it better be able to lend assistance even though this mission is not why it was with the unit? Last Edited By: JonSidneyB 27-Feb-2008 21:02:31. Edited 1 times.
Dave Bender	Not mean that one does not try and engage you	#8	[-]
Posts: 6226 (27-Feb-2008 22:59:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If you follow this argument to its logical conclusion then your "destroyer killer" will soon become a 50,000 ton Iowa class battleship. Which is ok for the U.S. Navy with their unlimited budget. Everyone else needs to make some tough choices based on what they can afford. http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/destroyer/spahkreuzer/tech.html An argument could be made in favor of the 5,000 ton Spahkreuzer. These ships are fast enough to catch a destroyer. If DDs are the enemy then I would opt for 8 x 5" DP guns (4 twin turrets) over 6 x 6" guns. The disadvantage of this approach is that the Spahkreuzer is vulnerable to 5" DD gunfire. But you could probably make the ship slightly larger and give it a 2" thick armor belt. ZerstorerTotenKreuzer, Germany CL laid down 1938 Displacement: 4,280 t light; 4,427 t standard; 5,190 t normal; 5,779 t full load Loading submergence 430 tons/feet Dimensions: 499.34 ft x 48.56 ft x 15.29 ft (normal load) 152.20 m x 14.80 m x 4.66 m Armament: 8 - 5.04" / 128 mm guns (4 Main turrets x 2 guns, 2 superfiring turrets) 8 - 1.46" / 37 mm AA guns 16 - 0.79" / 20 mm guns Weight of broadside 528 lbs / 240 kg 10 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes Armour: Main turrets 0.71" / 18 mm Armour deck 0.39" / 10 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors, Geared drive, 3 shafts, 87,283 shp / 65,113 Kw = 35.00 kts Range 7,000nm at 17.00 kts Complement: 305 - 397 Cost: £3.043 million / $12.171 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 66 tons, 1.3 % Armour: 160 tons, 3.1 % Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %, Armament: 50 tons, 1.0 %, Armour Deck: 110 tons, 2.1 % Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 % Machinery: 2,390 tons, 46.1 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,564 tons, 30.1 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 910 tons, 17.5 % Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1.9 % Metacentric height 2.8 Remarks: Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is cramped Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Relative margin of stability: 1.34 Shellfire needed to sink: 2,130 lbs / 966 Kg = 33.3 x 5.0 " / 128 mm shells Torpedoes needed to sink: 0.6 Relative steadiness as gun platform: 70 % Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0.30 Relative quality as seaboat: 1.23 Hull form characteristics: Block coefficient: 0.490 Sharpness coefficient: 0.33 Hull speed coefficient 'M': 8.82 'Natural speed' for length: 22.35 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 % Trim: 57 Estimated hull characteristics & strength: Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 160.7 % Relative accommodation and working space: 139.0 % Displacement factor: 93 % Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.63 (Structure weight / hull surface area: 58 lbs / square foot or 282 Kg / square metre) Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.21 (for 20.67 ft / 6.30 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 7.39 ft) Relative composite hull strength: 0.68 Modified Spahkreuzer 1938 for use as a destroyer killer. 8 x 12.8cm DP guns ILO 6 x 15cm guns. 4 x flakviering ILO 8 x single 2cm light flak. This ship can still carry sonar and depth charges for ASW purpose. It can also carry mines. Last Edited By: Dave Bender 28-Feb-2008 00:45:19. Edited 1 times.
NewGolconda		#9	[-]
Posts: 3173 (28-Feb-2008 05:00:23) Commonwealth Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Super destroyers were very common, especially around the med littoral. Even the major navies built their 1850 ton late 1930's destroyer leaders/superdestroyers/destroyer destroyer. Any cruiser or destroyer has to face the fact that it's likely to engage any combination of enemy cruisers and destroyers. Only the capital ships are screened and treated with kid gloves (sometimes). One way to resolve this issue is to build 16,000 ton cruisers with 6in armor. Another is to built two 8000 ton cruisers with 3in armor and accept that you might loose one. Cruisers are always a paradox. The logic of 20% escalation in size, speed, fire power and protection is inescapable. It is also completely unaffordable. Even the USN started to run out of cruisers in late 1942. This business about the WWI BC's is bunkum. They engaged the enemy "large cruisers" at he Falklands, Dodger Bank and at Jutland (twice really). The turned away from enemy capital ships whenever they were given the choice. The German interwar 6in cruisers were a failure. The RN 6in 8000 tons ships less so. It occurred to me this morning that perhaps, fitted with type 271 and 284M radar and sent in numbers to the South Pacific, and worked up for night fighting they might have been a better choice in hindsight than the USN 8in tin clads for night fighting. Might not have been though, wouldn't want o catch too many long lances abreast those wing compartments. One of my favorite spring style exercises is a "modern" torpedo gunboat, built to cruiser scantlings and machinery standards (as were those things of the 1880/90's), armed with 4 by 5.5in guns in two twin gunhouses forward, and an array of 24in torpedoes, for 1925-1935 surface action. Might not have been a good warship class, but I find them interesting anyway. You should address the question of cruiser scantlings and machinery weight - do you want these ships to be to cruiser standards or destroyer standards? One of the under emphasized differences is in accommodation, workshop facilities, even bakeries for fresh bread, cool rooms etc. Will your ship be self sufficient or will it need tenders or alongside support?

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A dedicated destroyer killer to work in with other ships.

A dedicated destroyer killer to work in with other ships.

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