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Argosy23	Croatian navy news & discussion	Lead	[-]
Posts: 52 (11-Feb-2008 15:04:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	During the recent visist of our president to the Naval Institute which is designing these new ships, plans for building 12 new Coast Guard//HRM("Croatian war navy") were laid up. The 12 ships will be 8 new smaller patrol boats of around 35-40 meters in length, to replace the aging(and small) fleet of Mirnas(in HRM the class is known as Hrvatska Kostajnica class) that we now operate. The additional 4 will be built as corvettes of around 80 meters. Both designs will be designed with reduced RCS in mind. The plans were somewhat accelerated by a recent near-catastrophy when a turkish car-ferry ignited in flames just 13 miles off Istra(Istria), which showcased our complete incapability to properly patrol and safeguard our EEZ. Luckily, the oil spill was avoided. The 3 missile gunboats are currently undergoing repairs and modification, and the RBS-15 missiles are being upgraded and overhauled by swedes. Republic of Ragusa - Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro Last Edited By: Argosy23 29-Apr-2008 11:46:29. Edited 1 time.
Kielland		#1	[-]
Posts: 2241 (11-Feb-2008 21:06:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That is very good news for, soon to be NATO member, Croatia. Keep us informed!
PK		#2	[-]
Posts: 676 (11-Feb-2008 21:44:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Certainly it's legitimate for Croatia to develop units of their own. But IMHO, there is strong competition to beat: Turkey - Yonca MRTP-33 for the small patrol boats (two of them in service for Albania), Singapore - Fearless Class or Canada-Kingston Class for the corvettes depending on focus of activity and money. Just my thoughts, of course..
Argosy23		#3	[-]
Posts: 53 (13-Feb-2008 15:08:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	PK wrote: Certainly it's legitimate for Croatia to develop units of their own. But IMHO, there is strong competition to beat: Turkey - Yonca MRTP-33 for the small patrol boats (two of them in service for Albania), Singapore - Fearless Class or Canada-Kingston Class for the corvettes depending on focus of activity and money. Just my thoughts, of course.. Sure, and there are more ships to choose then those 2, but in my opinion, this is the right path to follow. Anyway, the same shipyard that wil be producing OPVs will also be making front sections of french FREMM frigates. Libya has also signed a deal with Kraljevica shipyards for another 4 PV-30LS patrol boats, and will overhaul and service their fleet in Croatia. So, there's definately a market for made-in-croatia ships. Republic of Ragusa - Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
PK		#4	[-]
Posts: 677 (13-Feb-2008 21:17:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Libya has also signed a deal with Kraljevica shipyards for another 4 PV-30LS patrol boats, and will overhaul and service their fleet in Croatia. So, there's definately a market for made-in-croatia ships. Sure, I did not doubt that. Do you have additional info on the designs (Speed, Crew, Equipment etc.)? Or a link to the Naval Institute (the Kraljevica Shipyard seems to be offline)?
Argosy23		#5	[-]
Posts: 54 (14-Feb-2008 16:09:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Latest news suggest up to 12 smaller units, and up to 5 bigger corvettes. PK, I didn't understand, are you asking specs on Libya's PV-30LS, or about new croatian navy ships. I can provide some about the PV-30LS. As for web pages, Kraljevica's web page seems to be down. The Naval Insatitute's web doesn't contain any military content, the only which does is the BSO Split shipyards page. They were the yard mostly involved in submarines construction back in Yugoslavia. Now they are mostly into merchant ships, unless our goverment decides to bring back submarines. BSO Split was subject to taiwan's interest in the 90s, I guess taiwan was interested in gaining experience in building submarines or maybe interested in Lora SS(G)K design. Republic of Ragusa - Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro Last Edited By: Argosy23 14-Feb-2008 16:20:26. Edited 2 times.
Argosy23		#6	[-]
Posts: 55 (23-Mar-2008 15:50:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It seems that Croatia has bought 2 of the Helsinki class missile boats from Finnland as a part of the Patria AMV purchase, for 6 million euros. The ships would/will be used to fill the gap untill the arrival of new warships. The specs for the new corvettes/frigates have been rewritten. The new plan calls for a class of 4-5 warships of around 90-120 meters in length, which brings me to the conclusion that Gowind 200 might be back in the game. If Kraljevica shipyard gets the deal for building bow sections for FREMM frigates, I think there's a good chance of Gowind 200 being sold to Croatia. There's also a domestical ship that is being designed, of which models were constructed, but there are no pictures yet. Republic of Ragusa - Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro Last Edited By: Argosy23 23-Mar-2008 15:54:27. Edited 1 times.
Per Nordenberg		#7	[-]
Posts: 727 (24-Mar-2008 13:30:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Argosy23 wrote: It seems that Croatia has bought 2 of the Helsinki class missile boats from Finnland as a part of the Patria AMV purchase, for 6 million euros. The ships would/will be used to fill the gap untill the arrival of new warships. Good news! According to wikipedia it's the two Finnish Helsinki class boats FNS Oulu and FNS Kotka that have been sold to Croatia. They make sense since they are/were armed with the Swedish RBS-15 SSM and Bofors 57 mm Mk1 gun, which both are already in service in the Croatian navy. The ships will apparently be in service by mid-2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_class_missile_boat The RBS-15 missiles are also being upgraded to latest standard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Navy I doubt though that the Swedísh Göteborg class corvette K24 Sundsvall is to be donated since she is one of two still in service in the RSwN, and AFAIK they are scheduled to be modernized and kept to 2020. Regards, Per Nordenberg Last Edited By: Per Nordenberg 5-Sep-1915 22:09:50. Edited 3 times.
Argosy23		#8	[-]
Posts: 56 (24-Mar-2008 13:39:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	With 2 Helsinkis bought, I do not think we'll see any Goteborgs bought by Croatia. I'm guessing that the 2 Helsinkis will replace the two Kralj class guboats, not supplement them. The Kralj class is in need of a expensive refit and new engines, which is probably too much to pay for a limited time in service. Thus, I think that the Helsinkis will spend no more than 5-6 years in service with the Croatian navy, before being replaced with new corvettes/frigates. Republic of Ragusa - Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
Per Nordenberg		#9	[-]
Posts: 728 (24-Mar-2008 16:20:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Argosy23 wrote: With 2 Helsinkis bought, I do not think we'll see any Goteborgs bought by Croatia. I'm guessing that the 2 Helsinkis will replace the two Kralj class guboats, not supplement them. The Kralj class is in need of a expensive refit and new engines, which is probably too much to pay for a limited time in service. Thus, I think that the Helsinkis will spend no more than 5-6 years in service with the Croatian navy, before being replaced with new corvettes/frigates. The two Helsinki class boats in question are 22 resp. 23 years old, while the two Kralj/King class boats are only 16 resp. 7 years old (approx.) How can it be more economical to maintain these two older -ex Finnish boats in favour of the younger Kralj class? W/o an extensive refit and modernisation the -ex Finnish boats probably have, as you say, no more than 5-6 years of service left, but surely the larger and younger Kralj/King class has a better potential for modernisation and a prolonged service? Furthermore, according to the info about the Kralj Petar Krešimir IV on wikipedia Croatia will "modernize existing two units with the latest radar/sensors, more powerful engines and new Close-in weapon system-RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile surface to Air missile system giving King class added capability." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kralj_Petar_Kre%C5%A1imir_IV Regards, Per Nordenberg
Argosy23		#10	[-]
Posts: 57 (24-Mar-2008 17:42:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The problem with Kralj class is that it was never equipped to it's full design specs(and the third in class was scrapped). The engines are crappy, those found in the much older RTOP-21 Sibenik are still going strong despite the ship being 32 years old. The entire refit and the installation of new engines would cost much more then 2 used helsinkis, and would probably be used not that much longer. In that perspective, I see no reason not to replace 2 Kralj class gunboats with 2 helsinkis, and either sell or scrap Petar Kresimir IV and Dmitar Zvonimir. The modernisation plan wikipedia speeks of is true, however, in light of this purchase, I think it might be cancelled. Republic of Ragusa - Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
Argosy23		#11	[-]
Posts: 61 (29-Apr-2008 11:29:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Republic of Ragusa - Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
Argosy23		#12	[-]
Posts: 62 (29-Apr-2008 11:37:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It seems that the Helsinki deal will indeed happen! According to one of the croatian newspapers(the link is provided bellow, but sadly the article is in Croatian only), the deal will be signed in less then a month, following a formal visit of viceadmiral Hans Holmström of the Finnish Navy. The 2 corvettes are the FNS 62 Oulu and FNS 63 Kotka. The going price is 8 million euros. The ships will be presented to the public on 18.09.2008, during the day of the Croatian Navy. Any info regearding this from Finnish members. The article states that some Croatian officers were in Finland, testing the 2 ships. The article http://www.nacional.hr/articles/view/44953 P.S. Renamed the thread as it was more of a general discussion and less connected to the original title Republic of Ragusa - Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro Last Edited By: Argosy23 29-Apr-2008 11:47:23. Edited 1 times.
Vorklift		#13	[-]
Posts: 12 (29-Apr-2008 19:43:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	There was news about this in Finnish media yesterday saying, that they will be sold for 6 million euros. The Chief of Defence Admiral Juhani Kaskeala will visit Croatia 5-7th next month due to this deal. There's also some talk with some quotes from a Croatian newspaper Slobodna Dalmacija saying, that the purchase of the 2 Helsinki-class ships will increase Croatian Navy's firepower by 50% and gives Croatia for the first time during their independence a chance to monitor the seas also from below the surface as well as locate and fight submarines if necessary. Last Edited By: Vorklift 29-Apr-2008 19:48:55. Edited 1 times.
Argosy23		#14	[-]
Posts: 63 (29-Apr-2008 20:18:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks, Vorklift! The only thing missing till now was a conformation from finnish media. BTW, I'm interested in what shape those ships are. Any recent pictures? Republic of Ragusa - Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro Last Edited By: Argosy23 29-Apr-2008 20:21:48. Edited 1 times.
Per Nordenberg		#15	[-]
Posts: 730 (29-Apr-2008 21:49:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Argosy23 wrote: BTW, I'm interested in what shape those ships are. Any recent pictures? Oulu 62, a Helsinki class fast attack craft leave Helsinki for the last time 13 July 2007 to be decommissioned the next day: Regards, Per
Per Nordenberg		#16	[-]
Posts: 731 (29-Apr-2008 22:03:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Vorklift wrote: There's also some talk with some quotes from a Croatian newspaper Slobodna Dalmacija saying, that the purchase of the 2 Helsinki-class ships will increase Croatian Navy's firepower by 50% and gives Croatia for the first time during their independence a chance to monitor the seas also from below the surface as well as locate and fight submarines if necessary. I didn't know the Helsinki class had any significant ASW capability, but I know they were scheduled at one time to get just that. Do you have any details? According to my old Combat Fleets 1990-91 they have a rather simple Simrad sonar type SS 304. Nothing is said about weapons, but I imagine that since they can lay mines they can also carry and drop depth charges. Regards, /Per --- Photography is the power of observation, not the application of technology.
Argosy23		#17	[-]
Posts: 64 (29-Apr-2008 22:10:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Any ASW capability is a SIGNIFICANT ASW contribution to the Croatian navy Wiki lists a Simrad SS304 hull mounted sonar and a Finnyards Sonac/PTA towed array sonar for Helsinkis. Republic of Ragusa - Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
Per Nordenberg		#18	[-]
Posts: 732 (29-Apr-2008 22:38:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Argosy23 wrote: Any ASW capability is a SIGNIFICANT ASW contribution to the Croatian navy Wiki lists a Simrad SS304 hull mounted sonar and a Finnyards Sonac/PTA towed array sonar for Helsinkis. If wiki is correct about the Helsinkis having a Finnyards Sonac/PTA towed array (similar to the towed arrays onboard the Raumas I think) they indeed have a significant ASW sensor capability, but apparently no other ASW weapons than depth charges. More photos of Oulu at shipspotting.com: http://www.shipspotting.com/search.php?query=Oulu+62&action=results (thanks to Hannibal) Regards, /Per --- One of Finland's ministers answered the question: "Which enemies has Finland?" The answer was: "Finland has always had three enemies: Russia, Russia and Russia." Last Edited By: Per Nordenberg 29-Apr-2008 23:03:30. Edited 2 times.
Vorklift		#19	[-]
Posts: 13 (29-Apr-2008 23:55:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes they have those sonars to my knowledge. That towed array sonar is supposed to be quite powerful as far as I've understood. But yes they only have the two depth charge rails, so the ASW capability could be better, but as Croatia currently doesn't possess any ASW capability whatsoever to my understanding I guess it's a very welcomed addition to their arsenal. I wonder how big of a task it would be to add ASW rocket launchers on the deck to add more ASW firepower like the Finnish Rauma, Hämeenmaa and Kiisla classes have. Shouldn't be that expensive at least to my understanding. What comes to the ships shape they are very well taken care of and are in a very good condition. It was mentioned in a Finnish Navy related magazine Rannikon Puolustaja recently, that those two last Helsinki class ships are partly even in a better shape than the 10 years younger Rauma class and Finnish Navy keeps their ships in a very good condition generally. In the same magazine btw. they're saying that the whole Finnish Navy's underwater surveillance capability will drop now after the Helsinki class is decommissioned, so those sonars should be quite good indeed. The ship's air surveillance capability is quite a bit weaker though, than Rauma and Hamina classes have for example, but that's understandable as their radars are much older and their earlier planned upgrades were canceled after they decided to decommission the class. Last Edited By: Vorklift 30-Apr-2008 00:54:55. Edited 1 times.
Argosy23		#20	[-]
Posts: 65 (30-Apr-2008 08:24:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Guys, thanks for your info. Can't wait till those ships arrive in the Adriatic! Republic of Ragusa - Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro

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