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Lettertime - Post EG Speculation

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borys68

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Posts: 2413

( 9-Feb-2008 15:51:00)

Ahoj!
BTW - running something similar to A-H, I use the following distinctions:
Active Imperial and Royal ("federal") units are Reichswehr.
Reserve Imperial and Royal ("federal") units are Landwehr.
Provincial troops, militia, like British Territorial Army, are Heimwehr. Would "Hearthguard" be a reasonable translation?

Anything glaringly wrong with the above?

Borys

Vordarian

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Posts: 27

( 9-Feb-2008 16:04:37)

AFAIK, the Imperial Army was organized by age categories. There was the regular Heer, after serving there a man would be called up for the Reserve, after that Landwehr, and last, for the old men, Landsturm.

And no, you Piefkes can't have Porsche. He's ours, ours, you hear!

borys68

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Posts: 2414

( 9-Feb-2008 17:22:41)

Ahoj!
Yes and no - in A-H the "Austrian" KK units (Imperial-Royal, as distinct from KuK, i.e. Imperial AND Royal) were called Landwehr. And Hungrian ones Honved. Heer or Landwehr, the soldiers were of same age.
It was in the upstart Kaiserreich up north that Landwehr was the third stage of service.
It was already pointed out to me that "Austrian German" is different from "German German"

Please explain Piefke, I am not familiar with this term.
Borys

Dave Bender

Can't have Porsche

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Posts: 6109

( 9-Feb-2008 18:01:50)

Ferdinand Porsche worked for Daimler, which had factories in both Deutsches Reich and Austria-Hungary. Both nations shared automotive technology during the WWI era. They also shared technology in many other areas. The Taube recon aircraft was designed in A-H but mass produced in Germany. The pre-WWI Burstyn tank was patented in both A-H and Germany. Poldi tungsten steel, produced in modern day Czech Republic, was used to make engine crankshafts in WWI era German aircraft engines. An Austrian Chemist (Karl Bayer) invented an advanced process for obtaining aluminum from bauxite, of which Germany was the largest producer by the 1930s. An Austrian graduate student studying at a German university invented DDT in 1874.

SMS12

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Posts: 620

( 9-Feb-2008 19:03:20)

borys68 wrote:
Ahoj!
Yes and no - in A-H the "Austrian" KK units (Imperial-Royal, as distinct from KuK, i.e. Imperial AND Royal) were called Landwehr. And Hungrian ones Honved. Heer or Landwehr, the soldiers were of same age.
It was in the upstart Kaiserreich up north that Landwehr was the third stage of service.
It was already pointed out to me that "Austrian German" is different from "German German"

Borys

A half forgotten memory. My maternal grandparents came from AH (Hungary) after the Great War. He had served in the Hussars and always referred to them as the Royal Hussars. He also always referred to F-J as the King rather than the Emperor. This may just be a product of his limited English vocabulary or it may represent general Hungarian feelings toward the Hapsburgs.

borys68

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Posts: 2417

( 9-Feb-2008 19:22:57)

Ahoj!
Grandpa was correct.
He was in the Kiralyi Honvedseg, the Royal Honved. And indeed in Hungary F-J was KING, not EMPEROR.
Borys

ViribusUnitis

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Posts: 420

(10-Feb-2008 11:11:21)

borys68 wrote:
Ahoj!
Yes and no - in A-H the "Austrian" KK units (Imperial-Royal, as distinct from KuK, i.e. Imperial AND Royal) were called Landwehr. And Hungrian ones Honved. Heer or Landwehr, the soldiers were of same age.
It was in the upstart Kaiserreich up north that Landwehr was the third stage of service.
It was already pointed out to me that "Austrian German" is different from "German German"

Please explain Piefke, I am not familiar with this term.
Borys

Piefke is the Austrian's favorite insult for Germans - it's a synonym for the overly correct, strict and very formal German. Never applied to Bavarians.

To my knowledge, it's based on the name of two popular conductors of military bands, who performed in Vienna after the austro-prussian war. "The Piefkes are coming"

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Gottfried_Piefke)

I'd translate "Heimwehr" as Homeguard, Hearthguard sounds (to me) as someone who makes sure that the food doesn't become too crispy.

Vordarian

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Posts: 28

(10-Feb-2008 11:45:50)

-Borys: Yes, that's what I was saying. I should've been clearer about it, but I referred to the Imperial German Army.

-Viribusunitis: Correct, Piefkes are what Bavarians call 'Prussians', i.e. everyone north of the Weisswurstlinie, the great demarcation line through Germany, north of which it is impossible to get edible sausages, German becomes unrecognizable and most people are Lutheran heretics.

ViribusUnitis

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Posts: 421

(10-Feb-2008 12:22:35)

Vordarian wrote:
-Borys: Yes, that's what I was saying. I should've been clearer about it, but I referred to the Imperial German Army.

-Viribusunitis: Correct, Piefkes are what Bavarians call 'Prussians', i.e. everyone north of the Weisswurstlinie, the great demarcation line through Germany, north of which it is impossible to get edible sausages, German becomes unrecognizable and most people are Lutheran heretics.

The famous Weisswurstäquator... Although from south of "The Line", I'm not a fan of Weisswurst, I prefer Debeziner/Käsekrainer (but I love the bavarian mustard).

BTW, there are also Lutheran heretics in the South ;-)

Vordarian

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Posts: 29

(11-Feb-2008 01:27:19)

Käsekrainer forever!

Syphon1

U-Boot tactics

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Posts: 385

(12-Feb-2008 13:23:46)

Ok we've discussed nearly everything but what about u-boot tactics?

With no USW at present in letterstime how will the tactics of the U-boot commanders develop?

Maybe if there a bubblehead viewing they might give some insight to a poor landlubber.

I just don't really know how u-boots would go using cruiser tactics?

lets discuss

We satisfy our endless needs And justify our bloody deeds In the name of destiny And in the name of God David

ViribusUnitis

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Posts: 424

(12-Feb-2008 13:48:20)

Syphon1 wrote:
Ok we've discussed nearly everything but what about u-boot tactics?

With no USW at present in letterstime how will the tactics of the U-boot commanders develop?

Maybe if there a bubblehead viewing they might give some insight to a poor landlubber.

I just don't really know how u-boots would go using cruiser tactics?

lets discuss

Germany could also focus on minelaying u-boats, operating in designated zones with lots of 'enter at your own risk, we are fighting a war over here in Europe' announcements.

miketr

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Posts: 2848

(12-Feb-2008 15:35:12)

Syphon1 wrote:
Ok we've discussed nearly everything but what about u-boot tactics?

With no USW at present in letterstime how will the tactics of the U-boot commanders develop?

Maybe if there a bubblehead viewing they might give some insight to a poor landlubber.

I just don't really know how u-boots would go using cruiser tactics?

lets discuss

Germany did just this between the first and second round of unrestricted submarine warfare. As to how it worked its rather straight forward and dangerous.

U-Boat lurks along shipping lanes near land, including off US coast but outside territorial waters. U Boat spots a likely target and surfaces demanding ship surrender at once. At same time the deck gun is quickly manned. If ship refuses to surrender its a rather simple matter the Germans blow the ship out of the water. If its a Q-Ship the U Boat gets to see how quickly it can dive... Once the ship has surrendered a boat is launched and a boarding party put aboard if its an entente ship, etc. its crew are ordered into life boats and the ship is sunk by the U Boats deck gun. The crew are then pointed at dry land and told to row for safety. This last part is the fig leaf of German U-Boat cruiser operation as they can't do this stunt in the open ocean but have to be close enough to dry land for the crew to be able to make it to safety on their own. Otherwise the Germans would by the rules have to take them on board the Uboat. Technically even what the Germans are doing hear is outside the rules but it was close enough that the USA didn't get bent out of shape on it. Needless to say using a U Boat this way opens it up to all sorts of danger, especially if the merchant in question had a radio and there is a nearby warship. I think at one point the Germans threatened to sink ships that radioed for help but the USA freaked over that...

Michael

Dave Bender

What about u-boot tactics?

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Posts: 6121

(12-Feb-2008 20:25:16)

First Germany needs to build some ocean going submarines. Until then the Arkhangelsk operation plus the Pola flotilla will require the entire supply of ocean going U boats in commission.

Don't really know how u-boots would go using cruiser tactics
KptLt Lothar von Arnauld de la Periere sank 454,000 tons using cruiser tactics. The world record for a submarine commander.
http://uboat.net/history/wwi/part4.htm
At the end of 1915 SM U 35 was taken over by Kptlt. Lothar von Arnauld de la Periere, who was to become the most successful U-boat skipper of all time, a record which still stands. During his war time career, he fired only four torpedoes (one miss) and sank his victims (194 ships totalling 454,000 tons) always strictly according to prize rules with his boat's 88 mm deck gun. His patrol performance was outstanding: in April/May 1916 he sank 23 ships, totalling 68,000 tons on a five week patrol and in July/August 1916 in four weeks he sank 54 ships, totalling 91,150 tons.

Kptlt. Lothar von Arnauld de la Perière
(1886 - 1941)

Arnauld, who stayed in command of SM U 35 until 1918 and conducted 15 war patrols with it, later commented on this patrol:

"My record cruise was quite tame and dull. We stopped the vessels. The crews boarded the lifeboats. We inspected the ships' documents, told the crews how they could reach the next port and then sank the stopped prize."

For his achievements the Prussian aristocrat Arnauld, who was a modest but very skilled skipper respected by his crew, was awarded the Pour le mérite.

After the war Arnauld served in the Turkish Navy in the 1930's and from 1939 again in the German Navy. He died during an aircraft accident near Paris, France in 1941.

Syphon1

One more loss

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Posts: 386

(16-Feb-2008 06:14:23)

said:

---- Rome, later on June 3, 1915

"Well, Major?" the ambassador asked.

The major opened the paper, searched for the small marks that would give reveal the information he wanted. It was in code but he could translate it immediately. It was only one word. An answer to a question he had asked his agent yesterday.

"It says, 'No,' Mr. Ambassador. The Italians will not join the war against us, at least not immediately. Prime Minister Salandra has survived the initial shock of our defeat, but his position is very vulnerable. The Germans have been in contact both with Giolitti and with elements within Salandra's own interventionist faction, so the Italian situation is still highly unstable."

"One more loss..." the ambassador whispered.

"In that case we would most likely have Italy join our enemies, Mr. Ambassador." After a brief pause he continued, "Perhaps we would benefit more from switching our support to Giolitti's anti war faction. It would reduce the risk of Italy becoming an active participant in the war."

"I can't understand it, Major! How could the Germans build a fleet capable of challenging us in less than twenty years? It took the Royal Navy centuries to become what it is..." Or what it was, the ambassador added to himself. "I just can't understand it."

Is the recent draw / win enough to push Italy into a rash decision.

Lets take logic out for a second and think of the emotional response of another RN loss on the Italian war hawks.

Are they strong enough now to be able to push though a vote for war against the Entente?

I'm not asking if it is the correct, economic or the logical thing to do but some times emotions get the better of good judgement?

Since this meeting the Entente has been invaded and had another naval loss and a draw. From the Italian point of view things must be looking pretty grim for the Entente and might they decide that it's either now or never?

lets discuss?

We satisfy our endless needs And justify our bloody deeds In the name of destiny And in the name of God David

Last Edited By: Syphon1 16-Feb-2008 06:21:28. Edited 1 times.

P3D

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Posts: 744

(16-Feb-2008 06:54:43)

Let's see. The French and RN pre-dn/AC fleets are still adequate to contain Italy and Austria, and interdict reinforcements to Africa. Write-off 80% of the Italian merchant and fishing fleets. There should be enough French divisions in the Alps to stop any Italian invasion attempt, judged by historical Italian performance in mountainous terrain. Coal shortage in the Winter (or even sooner), food shortage in 1916. Libya, Somalia and Eritrea is lost to the UK in a few months. There's still too many divisions in Alexandria these days. Italy entering the war cannot win it overnight.

Dave Bender

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Posts: 6141

(16-Feb-2008 15:34:06)

P3D wrote:
Let's see. The French and RN pre-dn/AC fleets are still adequate to contain Italy and Austria, and interdict reinforcements to Africa. Write-off 80% of the Italian merchant and fishing fleets. There should be enough French divisions in the Alps to stop any Italian invasion attempt, judged by historical Italian performance in mountainous terrain. Coal shortage in the Winter (or even sooner), food shortage in 1916. Libya, Somalia and Eritrea is lost to the UK in a few months. There's still too many divisions in Alexandria these days. Italy entering the war cannot win it overnight.

This is true. But what does common sense and military logic have to do with the decision to enter WWI? From what I can see Japan was the only Entente nation whose decision to enter WWI was rational.

TomB1

Italian Entry

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Posts: 70

(16-Feb-2008 22:30:15)

Syphon1 wrote:

said:

---- Rome, later on June 3, 1915

"Well, Major?" the ambassador asked.

The major opened the paper, searched for the small marks that would give reveal the information he wanted. It was in code but he could translate it immediately. It was only one word. An answer to a question he had asked his agent yesterday.

"It says, 'No,' Mr. Ambassador. The Italians will not join the war against us, at least not immediately. Prime Minister Salandra has survived the initial shock of our defeat, but his position is very vulnerable. The Germans have been in contact both with Giolitti and with elements within Salandra's own interventionist faction, so the Italian situation is still highly unstable."

"One more loss..." the ambassador whispered.

"In that case we would most likely have Italy join our enemies, Mr. Ambassador." After a brief pause he continued, "Perhaps we would benefit more from switching our support to Giolitti's anti war faction. It would reduce the risk of Italy becoming an active participant in the war."

"I can't understand it, Major! How could the Germans build a fleet capable of challenging us in less than twenty years? It took the Royal Navy centuries to become what it is..." Or what it was, the ambassador added to himself. "I just can't understand it."

Is the recent draw / win enough to push Italy into a rash decision.

Lets take logic out for a second and think of the emotional response of another RN loss on the Italian war hawks.

Are they strong enough now to be able to push though a vote for war against the Entente?

I'm not asking if it is the correct, economic or the logical thing to do but some times emotions get the better of good judgement?

Since this meeting the Entente has been invaded and had another naval loss and a draw. From the Italian point of view things must be looking pretty grim for the Entente and might they decide that it's either now or never?

lets discuss?

Italy will not be joining the CP soon. They will however be in talks that might lead to that eventually. The Entente will know about this and this will be one reason the MN is not going to send any of its BB to join the GF.

Roller007

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Posts: 1076

(16-Feb-2008 22:36:56)

Also, if Italy is smart, they will be making a killing at selling all the stuff they can to the CP. If that become enough of a cash cow Italy will have a new lobby making sure that Italies commercial interests are protected and Italy remains neutral, imho.

Syphon1

[-]

Posts: 387

(17-Feb-2008 00:53:55)

P3D wrote:
Let's see. The French and RN pre-dn/AC fleets are still adequate to contain Italy and Austria, and interdict reinforcements to Africa. Write-off 80% of the Italian merchant and fishing fleets. There should be enough French divisions in the Alps to stop any Italian invasion attempt, judged by historical Italian performance in mountainous terrain. Coal shortage in the Winter (or even sooner), food shortage in 1916. Libya, Somalia and Eritrea is lost to the UK in a few months. There's still too many divisions in Alexandria these days. Italy entering the war cannot win it overnight.

This is all true but I said lets take logic out of the equation.

If all this is done how many badly need troops does it tie up? How much munitions already in short supply do they use? Not to mention resources that are badly needed elsewhere used combating Italy.

Any Italian entry into the Great war now on the side of the CP just creates one more headache for the Entente ties down more troops and takes that little bit more pressure off Germany. Not to mention that Italy and A-H's Navies will need to be countered.

Where do these ships come from? the Channel Fleet, French Atlantic, the convoys or the already depleted GF?

Any Italian entry must be countered by the Entente and they in my opinion are stretched very very thin. At some point something has to give.

Yes Italy could lose its north African possessions but if they are on the winning side of the Greater War they'll most likely get them back and more besides.

Imagine a reverse ToV with France in Germanys OTL position. Italy would want Compensation as would Germany.Kaiser Bill wasn't very astute.

Now a lot of this depends on what GB does. Does it make a separate peace and abandon France and Russia to The tender mercies of the CP?

Does it continue the fight even if Russia and France have died? I think not for the simple reason that if this course were to be taken the German U-boots could operate from French Atlantic ports and effectively blockade GB while the GF is keep busy in the North Sea by what remains of the HSF.

Italy's entry if it happens is more then the sum of it's parts; psychological, economic, military all this and more have to be countered by the Ententes.

Lets be frank if Italy were to join even if their army did nothing but sit on the French border and throw shell at them, the Entente would have to respond and every shell fired at the Italians in Europe or North Africa is one less to be used on the Germans who are the single greatest threat to France. And every extra man sent south to face off against Italy is one less man stopping the Germans.

It gets worst for France if Russia caves in and leaves the war. Then it is France and GB facing the CP with effectively a one front war.

Tis is not a good siyuation for the Entente to be in.

We satisfy our endless needs And justify our bloody deeds In the name of destiny And in the name of God David

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Lettertime - Post EG Speculation

said:

---- Rome, later on June 3, 1915

said:

---- Rome, later on June 3, 1915

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