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pascaly |
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Posts: 1417 (23-Nov-2007 02:13:56) |
Nice post Jim, very thorough. I'd had similar thoughts myself about using these as carriers; as much as I'd like to see 805 flying Dave B off them, I
think the time, money and space could be better spent. The better option I feel would be a third vessel, dedicated as a CV, giving us two LHD with limited CV
capability and 1 CV with limited LHD capability. Not planning on counting my chickens any time soon however.
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NewGolconda |
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Posts: 2893 (23-Nov-2007 02:27:04) Commonwealth Moderator |
IMHO these ships are not carriers - nor anything like them. If we want a carrier we should order a third ship, that will cost 2-3 times as much, even before we
start looking at aircraft.
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Jim WH |
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Posts: 764 (23-Nov-2007 11:45:44) |
Actually NewGolconda, I think you're slightly wrong on this one, although it's really a question of emphasis. You could use a Juan Carlos I class LHD
as a carrier if you wanted to. The hanger is adequate to carry quite a few aircraft, there is more than enough accommodation and storage/magazine space, and
the C4ISR suite should be more than up to the job. And indeed the Spanish will be using it in just such a role. The question is more what do you get?
Realistically I'd be very surprised if a JC I could sustain the full 3-4 sorties per day per JSF for more than half a dozen fixed wing a/c. I've not
seen or heard the sortie generation capabilities, but I'm guessing that it'll be in the order of 30-35 fast jet sorties per day in surge conditions*,
which really isn't all that much.
Therefore, it Australia was building 4 LHD, then having a squadron of F-35B would (IMHO) make a fair bit of sense, since it would allow the deployment of the 2,000 man EMF in addition to fielding a reasonable if not especially stunning fixed wing aviation capability and enough sea lift to keep everything going (although this doesn't answer the question of where the crew for this scheme is coming from). But the fact is that it'd be a very limited capability overall. A proper carrier (and I'll happily agree that the JC I falls short of this) would probably be more like the Cavour class: lower freeboard, larger flight deck, and a few other more carrier-like features (greater speed for better wind over deck, a flight deck more optimised for fixed wing a/c operations etc.). The result is a ship that can generate something more like 40-50 fast jet sorties per day in surge conditions, which equates to about a squadron's worth of JSF in addition to support helicopters. Now, the Cavour is a more expensive ship (can't recall figures, and probably can't be bothered), and requires a larger crew (which would exacerbate existing personnel problem). There's also a hidden cost, in that while a roughly Cavour-like CVS can maybe sustain 30-40 fast jet sorties per day, it could only do so while supplies lasted, and that isn't long unless you have the fleet train to go with it. So, add at least another AOR into the mix. That would be an expensive route for the RAN to follow, but if we want to do an aircraft carrier, that'd be the way to go (i.e. a CVS rather than and LHD). *To put it in perspective, CVF is designed to generate 420 fast jet sorties over a 5 day period with 108 sorties in 24 hours in surge conditions from 36 F-35B. |
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bager1968 |
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Posts: 2649 (24-Nov-2007 07:35:44) |
All very true, but the RAAF/RAN-FAA having a few F-35Bs does give the option of providing quick-response CAS/local Air Superiority for the limited amphibious
operations the RAN is equipping for.
Much like the USMC has been doing throughout the 1980s with their AV-8Bs and the Tarawa LHAs... also not designed for sustained fixed-wing ops, but capable of operating 8 STOVL strike aircraft for a short combat period. Now, the USN has the Wasp-class LHDs, which are designed to operate 12 or so STOVL strike aircraft for extended periods of combat, or 16 for medium-duration missions. The RAN LHDs will be able to support 6-8 F-35Bs for short periods of combat... East Timor, etc. Anything longer-term or larger in scope will require the aid of the USN/RN/etc... and the RAN knows this. I can see an Aussie purchase of ~25 F-35Bs, but only after all the RAAF F-35A order is delivered. |
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Jim WH |
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Posts: 767 (25-Nov-2007 07:26:10) |
According to
Ares the principal radar will be a Sea Giraffe:
Posted by Joris Janssen Lok at
11/23/2007 6:59 AM
Australia's two new Spanish (Navantia)-designed Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD) ships will be equipped with Saab Systems combat management systems and 3-D air and sea search radars under a design, development and integration contract worth A$105 million ($87 million), signed between Saab and LHD prime contractor Tenix Marine.
The two new LHDs for the Royal Australian Navy will provide Australia with a massively-enhanced capability to support worldwide expeditionary operations. The 27,800-ton ships are to be delivered in 2012 and 2014, respectively. Image: Tenix Marine The combat management system will be the latest 9LV Mk 4 system which features a fully open systems architecture. Australia's eight Anzac-class frigates, equipped with the 9LV Mk 3E system, will also be upgraded with this technology. The radar for each ship will be a Saab Systems Sea Giraffe AMB (Agile Multi Beam), a type that is also equipping Sweden's Visby class of stealth corvettes as well as new warships in Poland, the UAE and the U.S. (General Dynamics' lead Littoral Combat Ship, the USS Independence). Special features of the system will include helicopter control, watercraft control and close in self defense against
Cut-away view of Australia's future Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD) ship. Image: Tenix Marine Building of the first Australian LHD will commence at Navantia in Spain in March 2008, with the hull being delivered to Tenix in Australia in September 2011 and the fully outfitted and tested ship to be delivered to the Royal Australian Navy at the end of 2012. The second ship will start building in October 2009 with the hull arriving in Australia in April 2013 and the ship to be delivered in July 2014, Tenix Marine says. Each ship have a crew of around 250 and will have capacity to embark a force of around 1,000 troops. Army vehicles, supplies and/or helicopters can also be carried. |
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Astrolopitec |
A couple of new pics | ||
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Posts: 24 ( 1-Dec-2007 05:54:12) |
Finally the flight deck has began.
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1782/f313botadura348copiaup0.jpg http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5351/f313botadura1230copiaek5.jpg http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/833/vencedoraybirka005copiaeb2.jpg Credits to Romarin
Last Edited By: Astrolopitec
1-Dec-2007 16:00:09.
Edited 1 times.
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Astrolopitec |
They've started the island | ||
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Posts: 25 (25-Jan-2008 01:48:35) |
Lots of pics of the JC1 in this web page...
http://www.fotosdebarcos.com/viewtopic.php?t=13027&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20 |
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CVA02 |
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Posts: 337 (25-Jan-2008 22:11:03) |
Jim WH wrote: Sea Giraffe is hardly an appropriate radar for a ship devoted to aviation - perhaps this is grim sign for any possibility of F-35Bs being procured by the RAAF for embarkation upon the two new LHDs. Even the rather austere Korean Dokdo LHDs have both Smart-L and MW-08, which in contrast, seems to be a very capable fit. |
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NewGolconda |
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Posts: 3071 (26-Jan-2008 04:16:31) Commonwealth Moderator |
Of course, these ships are Landing Ships, not aircraft carriers.
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Astrolopitec |
Just another nice pic | ||
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Posts: 27 (10-Feb-2008 08:24:41) |
BTW The launching date has been moved from the 10th to the18th of March possibly for political reasons. The 11th of March is the anniversary of the Madrid
train bombings.
Last Edited By: Astrolopitec
10-Feb-2008 08:51:47.
Edited 2 times.
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