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Razor	OK what about this	Lead	[-]
Posts: 395 (17-Jan-2008 18:09:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	As you know after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour the US dclared war on Japan, as you would, then Germany declared war on the US so the US declared war on Germany . But what if Hitler had kept his mouth shut would Roosevelt have had the bits to declare war on Germany and would the world have been a better or worse place now if he hadn't
CliffS		#1	[-]
Posts: 425 (18-Jan-2008 15:27:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Razor wrote: As you know after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour the US dclared war on Japan, as you would, then Germany declared war on the US so the US declared war on Germany . But what if Hitler had kept his mouth shut would Roosevelt have had the bits to declare war on Germany and would the world have been a better or worse place now if he hadn't We have to think in terms of Germany's relationship with Japan. Hitler saw Japan as a natural ally, with similar grievances against the western powers. Germany suffered from the Versailles Treaty, Japan from US, British & Dutch oil embargos over the Nanking invasion & atrocities. So in that respect, I doubt Hitler would've offended his Nipponese friends by saying nothing after Pearl Harbor. Similarly, the weight of expectation on Roosevelt, after his two years of support for Churchill's war effort, gave him no room to back away from war against the Nazis. As to whether the world would be a better or worse place: the only reason my father learned German, was that he socialised with a lot of Austrians and Germans as a member of an occupying army between 1946 and 1948. And how are your Japanese language studies coming on? Cheers, Cliff.
A G Williams		#2	[-]
Posts: 1638 (18-Jan-2008 17:20:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Japan wasn't really Hitler's natural ally - he looked down on them as non-aryans, with his usual sense of racial superiority. And Japan refused to help Hitler by attacking the USSR in concert with Barbarossa, so why should Hitler help them? I think that if Hitler had said nothing, Roosevelt would have been under enormous pressure to forget about Germany and focus all resources on defeating Japan. Even so, I think that Germany and the USA would eventually have slid into war, if the USN kept attacking U-boats in the Atlantic. What would really have put the cat among the pigeons would have been if Hitler had declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor, in sympathy with the USA. Not very likely, I know, but entertaining to consider! Tony Williams Homepage: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
CliffS		#3	[-]
Posts: 428 (19-Jan-2008 21:18:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A G Williams wrote: Japan wasn't really Hitler's natural ally - he looked down on them as non-aryans, with his usual sense of racial superiority. And Japan refused to help Hitler by attacking the USSR in concert with Barbarossa, so why should Hitler help them? I think that if Hitler had said nothing, Roosevelt would have been under enormous pressure to forget about Germany and focus all resources on defeating Japan. Even so, I think that Germany and the USA would eventually have slid into war, if the USN kept attacking U-boats in the Atlantic. What would really have put the cat among the pigeons would have been if Hitler had declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor, in sympathy with the USA. Not very likely, I know, but entertaining to consider! Tony Williams Homepage: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk Tony - Hitler's racial idiosyncracies were well-known and documented, but he still had Ribbentrop sign the Tripartite Pact which, in 1940, brought Japan into the Axis with Germany and Italy. This allowed the Japs to demand airbases in French Indo-China, which the Vichy Government were obliged to provide - enabling Japan to mount air attacks against the British and Dutch in Singapore and Indonesia. As for attacking the Russians, they signed a Neutrality Pact with Moscow early in 1941. By this time, the oil embargos had begun to bite (Japan had managed to stockpile only 3 years' supply of oil.) Securing this commodity was Tojo's priority, not a meaningless conflict against an already-vanquished Soviet fleet - the only branch of the Soviet armed forces to pose any threat to the Japs. FWIW, I think the Japanese view of Hitler was equally contemptuous - but realpolitik won out. Cheers, Cliff.
splott	As it seems to me	#4	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 43 (20-Jan-2008 00:43:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The only use Germany and Japan had of each other as allied was to split the other sides resources. There where little or none cooperation in the war effort, even less that between the western allied and the Soviet Union. I agree with AG Williams that Germany and the USA would eventually have slid into war, but from a German perspective it would probably had been better if that would have happened 2 or 3 years later. That would have meant no strategic bombing by day from the USAAF only from RAF. Perhaps that would have freed resources from the air defense that could have been put to use on the eastern front. I don't know if it would have been enough to give the Germans back the initiative but maybe it would have stabilized the front. One question that might be asked is, if no US-German declaration of war and the US putting all it's resources and focus on Japan, giving UK less or no more support in form of war material, how long could the UK have managed on its own. Remember that the Germans would suffer less from having it's industry bombed to pieces, meaning that more and better bombers and night fighters would have been available for defence and bombings of the UK.
A G Williams		#5	[-]
Posts: 1640 (20-Jan-2008 02:53:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	CliffS wrote: As for attacking the Russians, they signed a Neutrality Pact with Moscow early in 1941. So did Hitler (a non-aggression pact, anyway). Tony Williams Homepage: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
USS Clarence E Walsh		#6	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 112 (22-Jan-2008 22:53:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	1. First off I agree that the Japanese were far from natural allies, having not only differing ideaologies but races, something of great importance to hitler. 2. This does not mean it was not recognized that they WERE allies, just that it wasn't amazingly obvious. 3. It was a vastly idiotic move for germany to declare war on america, cause frankly, despite their early victories, they still more than had their hands full with the USSR winning or not. The idea of doing something to bring in the OTHER most powerful country in the world against him was not smart at all. 4. The anti-war movement in the US was fairly strong and even with the japanese attack war with germany might not have been so inevitable had hitler not opened his big mouth. While there is a very good chance that the US would have come into the war eventually, it is also a good chance that it would have delayed them for a substantial amount of time giving the germans more resources to work with. Whether they could have defeated the USSR and won the war even with those resources remains to be seen, but it definitly would have been helpful.
Dave AAA		#7	[-]
Posts: 5358 (23-Jan-2008 02:08:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It was a vastly idiotic move for germany to declare war on america, cause frankly, despite their early victories, they still more than had their hands full with the USSR winning or not. The idea of doing something to bring in the OTHER most powerful country in the world against him was not smart at all. The United States was a divided land of decadent racial mongrels who were already doing about as much as they could do against Germany what with Lend Lease and an undeclared naval war. Besides, the Soviet Union would not last more than another year. Or at least, so the Nazis thought. Oops.
USS Clarence E Walsh		#8	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 115 (23-Jan-2008 03:51:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You vastly overestimate the idealism of the german war staff, while it is very possible that's what hitler thought, his generals were considerably more rational headed than him, and while granted that isn't saying a whole hell of a lot, it is something.
Dave AAA		#9	[-]
Posts: 5359 (23-Jan-2008 04:27:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The US Army didn't perform very well in the First World War, and it took over a year before they showed up in significant numbers. The US was already supplying a great deal of war material to the Allies. It would be logical to assume that as the US built up its forces, that aid to those actually fighting would decrease. Not only that, the US was now at war with Japan. It would be reasonable to assume that most US effort would go to the Pacific, relieving the pressure on the Atlantic where the USN was engaging the German Navy. As it happened, the first proved true against the Germans in this war as well.- at first. Then the US Army got a lot better. They badly underestimated US production capabilities. Not only did Lend Lease aid not decrease, it increased. In spite of Pearl Harbor, the US remained committed to beating Germany first. American ASW activity in the Atlantic did decrease somewhat, but increased British and Canadian activity (especially the deployment of long range ASW aircraft) made up for it.
brianm		#10	[-]
Posts: 370 (24-Jan-2008 01:34:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm with Tony on this one. Roosevelt was under huge domestic pressure not to get involved in the war in Europe. Post Pearl Harbour this position strengthened and I cannpt see how the US could have declared war on Germany first. Without the US entry into the European war, Britain would have to scale back its Far East commitments by some degree. I wouldn't like to say by how much. Depends if it wanted to try doing D Day by itself or if it was content to let the USSR roll across Europe. What a choice... The UK, USSR, Free French, etc would still defeat Germany & Italy. However, a greater proportion of the continent of Europe would have ended up behind the Iron Curtain. Probably all of Germany & Austria. Greece & The Balkans maybe? A split Italy? Probably not France. Meanwhile a single-minded US, China & a reduced British contribution would defeat Japan - probably faster than in real history and very possibly without the use of nukes. US entry in the war owing to U-Boat action. Maybe... Germany declaring war on Japan? A fascinating question, particularly with the large German-descended population in the US. Might the US have pushed harder for a (West) European peace? Might the UK of agreed? I think probably not but its interesting speculation.
NoOneFamous		#11	[-]
Posts: 952 (24-Jan-2008 04:30:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The German UBoats sinking American ships and the Lusitania helped get us into WWI, it might have worked for WWII
A G Williams		#12	[-]
Posts: 1649 (24-Jan-2008 09:09:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	NoOneFamous wrote: The German UBoats sinking American ships and the Lusitania helped get us into WWI, it might have worked for WWII In my alternative WW2 novel "The Foresight War" (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/TFWreviews.htm - about what might have happened if present-day German and British historians woke up in 1934), I faced this problem: how to get Hitler to declare war on the USA when he knew what the consequences were likely to be? So I had the devious Brits arrange a tragedy on the high seas... Tony Williams Homepage: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

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