1938 American Cruiser Killer

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xtvpry

British Cruiser-killer

[-]

Posts: 1998

(25-Dec-2007 12:52:03)

Even better value. Still for less than 27,000 tons std. 10" belt covers full freeboard. 16 heavy guns and 8 x torpedo's. Oodles of flak and 30knts. 500 tons misc. weight also included. Note the magazine supply for secondaries.

HMS Andromeda, GB Battlecruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:

25,510 t light; 26,828 t standard; 29,334 t normal; 31,338 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)

(712.12 ft / 700.00 ft) x 85.00 ft x (29.00 / 30.55 ft)

(217.05 m / 213.36 m) x 25.91 m x (8.84 / 9.31 m)

Armament:

16 - 9.20" / 234 mm 51.0 cal guns - 414.04lbs / 187.80kg shells, 150 per gun

Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model

4 x Quad mounts on centreline, forward deck forward

2 raised mounts - superfiring

12 - 4.50" / 114 mm 45.0 cal guns - 45.95lbs / 20.84kg shells, 450 per gun

Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model

6 x Twin mounts on sides amidships

32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1.97lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model

4 x 2 row octuple mounts on sides, evenly spread

24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.25lbs / 0.11kg shells, 2,000 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model

6 x Twin mounts on sides amidships

Weight of broadside 7,245 lbs / 3,286 kg

8 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 0.00 ft / 0.00 m torpedoes - 0.000 t each, 0.000 t total

In 2 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Armour:

- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)

Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

Ends: 2.50" / 64 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 11.06 ft / 3.37 m

Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:

1.77" / 45 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 26.88 ft / 8.19 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm

2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 4.00" / 102 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 4.00" / 102 mm For and Aft decks

Forecastle: 4.00" / 102 mm Quarter deck: 4.00" / 102 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 9.00" / 229 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,

Geared drive, 3 shafts, 109,967 shp / 82,035 Kw = 30.00 kts

Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 4,510 tons

Complement:

1,119 - 1,456

Cost:

£11.693 million / $46.773 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 1,818 tons, 6.2 %

Armour: 11,214 tons, 38.2 %

- Belts: 4,786 tons, 16.3 %

- Torpedo bulkhead: 880 tons, 3.0 %

- Armament: 1,996 tons, 6.8 %

- Armour Deck: 3,367 tons, 11.5 %

- Conning Tower: 184 tons, 0.6 %

Machinery: 3,011 tons, 10.3 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,966 tons, 30.6 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,824 tons, 13.0 %

Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.7 %

- Hull above water: 500 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

47,152 lbs / 21,388 Kg = 121.1 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 7.6 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03

Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m

Roll period: 17.5 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has rise forward of midbreak,

a normal bow and large transom stern

Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.595 / 0.603

Length to Beam Ratio: 8.24 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 30.34 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):

Fore end, Aft end

- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m

- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m

- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m

- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m

- Average freeboard: 21.48 ft / 6.55 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.9 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.6 %

Waterplane Area: 45,138 Square feet or 4,193 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 152 lbs/sq ft or 745 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.98

- Longitudinal: 1.28

- Overall: 1.01

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent

Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Last Edited By: xtvpry 25-Dec-2007 13:04:22. Edited 4 times.

Dave Bender

Kongo class BCs are not invincible

[-]

Posts: 5761

(25-Dec-2007 15:39:43)

For what it's worth, the 12"/45s should be able to do some damage to a Kongo before it blows your ship apart around you- better hope that radar lets you land the first salvo and that your men are better shots than the Japanese. Unfortunately, the Kongos were pretty much the only part of the Japanese battle line that *could* hit the broad side of a barn.
The Kongo class BCs are not unbeatable. Although extensively reconstructed, these 32,000 standard ton ships are still a 1911 design. But if you think the Kongo design is that good then why not just duplicate it, substituting American 14"/50 main guns for the Vickers designed 14"/45 weapons on the IJN BCs?

BTW, radar directed fire control is not part of the picture in 1938.

It appears to me that the American 12"/50 Mk 8 will punch through 9 inches of armor @ 30,000 yards. In other words, they can penetrate the Kongo class armor at any range that you can score a hit. The smaller and more modern American 12" gun is faster firing, which is a huge advantage at typical cruiser fight ranges. And it will still get the job done for the occasional long range fight. The Alaska class has a thicker armor belt then the Kongo class. And that belt is constructed of more modern armor plate and inclined 10 degrees. I would bet that the Alaska has a better chance of surviving an IJN 14" shell then the Kongo has of surviving an American 12" shell.

Kongo Class as rebuilt 1930s
Displacement 32, 156tons std 36, 600 tons full load		Dimensions 728' 3"oa 720'5" wl x 101'7"	Draught 31'8"
Main guns 8 x 14" (4 x 2)	Secondary guns 14 x 6" (14 x 1)	Light guns 8 x 5"AA 4 x 40mm	Torpedo tubes none
Armour Belt: 8" Barbettes: 10" Deck: 4.7 " Turrets: 11"
Machinery 8 Kampon boilers 11 in Haruna	Turbines 4 x Kampon geared	Power output 136,000 shp	Shafts 4
Speed 30 kts	Range 10,000 NM @ 18 kts		Crew: 1,437

01001011

[-]

Posts: 47

(30-Dec-2007 19:24:54)

After so many replies, it seems that the reason for building a ship specialized in countering the IJN CA's / Kongos is rather weak. The best solution is to build a 35000t 14" FAST BB, that certainly kill all old IJN battleships, escort the carriers, and fight in the battle line.

Michigan, USN battleship laid down 1938

Displacement:
34,353 t light; 36,148 t standard; 39,556 t normal; 42,283 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(838.58 ft / 813.65 ft) x 100.39 ft (Bulges 104.99 ft) x (31.17 / 32.85 ft)
(255.60 m / 248.00 m) x 30.60 m (Bulges 32.00 m) x (9.50 / 10.01 m)

Armament:
8 - 14.02" / 356 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,700.00lbs / 771.11kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
2 x 4-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 400 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
32 - 1.10" / 28.0 mm 79.0 cal guns - 0.76lbs / 0.34kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
8 x Quad mounts on side ends, evenly spread
20 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 115.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 4,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
20 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 14,575 lbs / 6,611 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.2" / 335 mm 508.53 ft / 155.00 m 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
Ends: 0.79" / 20 mm 305.09 ft / 92.99 m 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.36" / 60 mm 508.53 ft / 155.00 m 24.93 ft / 7.60 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.0" / 380 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.18" / 30 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -

- Armoured deck - single deck: 4.37" / 111 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 5.12" / 130 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 167,619 shp / 125,044 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,136 tons

Complement:
1,402 - 1,823

Cost:
£17.685 million / $70.739 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,960 tons, 7.5 %
Armour: 12,039 tons, 30.4 %
- Belts: 4,620 tons, 11.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,108 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 1,892 tons, 4.8 %
- Armour Deck: 4,271 tons, 10.8 %
- Conning Tower: 148 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 4,590 tons, 11.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,264 tons, 36.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,203 tons, 13.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.3 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 150 tons
- On freeboard deck: 150 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
62,710 lbs / 28,445 Kg = 45.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 9.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 7.8 ft / 2.4 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck ,
a straight bulbous bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.520 / 0.527
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.93 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 21.00 %, 31.82 ft / 9.70 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Aft deck: 32.50 %, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Quarter deck: 16.50 %, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 22.90 ft / 6.98 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177.2 %
Waterplane Area: 56,778 Square feet or 5,275 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 945 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Main belt thickness
Inner plate: 11.02" / 280 mm
De-capping plate: 2.17" / 55 mm

Deck armour thickness
Over engineering spaces: 5.12" / 130 mm (central 75%, 80% of length)
Over magazines: 5.71" / 145 mm
TB bounding plate: 1.77" / 45 mm

Dave Bender

Build a 35000t 14" FAST BB

[-]

Posts: 5812

(30-Dec-2007 21:29:27)

A perfectly reasonable solution. Just use the 14"/50 Mk B originally proposed for the North Carolina class BBs in 1937.

Considering the earlier dispersion problems with the U.S. 14" triple turrets, I would not chance introducing quad turrets with war on the horizon. By 1938 the U.S. Navy has all the bugs worked out of the 14"/50 triple turret, including a respectable elevation of 30 degrees. If it ain't broke then don't fix it. Just put 3 of the proven 14" triple turrets on the new American really large heavy cruiser (CD? We don't want anyone to get the wrong idea and think this is a battleship.)

Rick Robinson

Alas ...

[-]

Posts: 1678

(31-Dec-2007 07:19:18)

I don't think you can fit 9 x 14" (3 x 3) onto 35,000 tons standard, and keep the armor protection. Probably not even 3-2-3, and personally I'm uncomfortable with 2 quad turrets. That's why I accepted the 12" gun, sacrificing firepower for protection. The 12" is clearly better for encountering cruisers, because it shoot faster, and in a long range battleship fight I don't think any of the older Japanese battleships had really great vertical protection.

Dave Bender

12" is clearly better for encountering cruisers

[-]

Posts: 5819

(31-Dec-2007 16:07:29)

I agree. With the technology available in 1938, the 12"/50 Mk 8 would be my first choice for a main gun. And I would include a lot (maybe 20) of 5"/38 guns for breaking up torpedo attacks by IJN destroyers. However a ship with 9 x 14" main guns and a 12" armor belt would work if the 12" main gun design gets over ruled.

Sticking with a 12" main gun also has positive diplomatic consequences. We can pass these ships off as large cruisers a lot easier. I would have a hard time keeping a straight face while explaining that our new ship armed with 14" main guns is a large cruiser.

xtvpry

[-]

Posts: 2003

(31-Dec-2007 23:18:18)

I think this ticks all the right boxes.

USS Oregon, USA Battlecruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:

32,937 t light; 35,108 t standard; 38,471 t normal; 41,162 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)

(801.19 ft / 790.00 ft) x 102.00 ft x (30.00 / 31.60 ft)

(244.20 m / 240.79 m) x 31.09 m x (9.14 / 9.63 m)

Armament:

12 - 12.00" / 305 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,140.00lbs / 517.10kg shells, 150 per gun

Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model

4 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread

2 raised mounts - superfiring

16 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 450 per gun

Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model

8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread

24 - 1.10" / 27.9 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.67lbs / 0.30kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model

6 x Quad mounts on sides amidships

12 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model

12 x Single mounts on sides amidships

Weight of broadside 14,705 lbs / 6,670 kg

Armour:

- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)

Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m

Ends: Unarmoured

Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm

2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 6.00" / 152 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 5.00" / 127 mm For and Aft decks

Forecastle: 5.00" / 127 mm Quarter deck: 5.00" / 127 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,

Geared drive, 3 shafts, 124,063 shp / 92,551 Kw = 30.00 kts

Range 10,000nm at 16.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 6,055 tons

Complement:

1,373 - 1,785

Cost:

£16.145 million / $64.579 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 2,404 tons, 6.3 %

Armour: 13,101 tons, 34.1 %

- Belts: 5,004 tons, 13.0 %

- Armament: 2,356 tons, 6.1 %

- Armour Deck: 5,496 tons, 14.3 %

- Conning Tower: 246 tons, 0.6 %

Machinery: 3,397 tons, 8.8 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,534 tons, 35.2 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,535 tons, 14.4 %

Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.3 %

- Hull below water: 500 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

57,282 lbs / 25,983 Kg = 66.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05

Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m

Roll period: 17.9 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck,

a normal bow and large transom stern

Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.557 / 0.566

Length to Beam Ratio: 7.75 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 32.53 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):

Fore end, Aft end

- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m

- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m

- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m

- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m

- Average freeboard: 18.48 ft / 5.63 m

Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61.6 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.2 %

Waterplane Area: 58,942 Square feet or 5,476 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 187 lbs/sq ft or 913 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 1.00

- Longitudinal: 1.03

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent

Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Last Edited By: xtvpry 1-Jan-2008 14:11:40. Edited 1 times.

Dave Bender

I think this ticks all the right boxes.

[-]

Posts: 5827

( 1-Jan-2008 16:53:18)

Hmm.
I think the primary and secondary guns are just about perfect for the job.

However I have an issue with speed vs armor. These CBs are supposed to operate with the cruiser fleet, not with the main battle line. The 30 year old Kongo class BCs may be good for only 30 kts, but there is no reason a 1938 large cruiser cannot achieve 32 kts. The Germans managed it with their Scharnhorst class. Certainly we can do as well as the Krauts. A 13" armor belt and 5" armor deck is massive overkill for a cruiser fight. Reduce the armor and I think you can achieve 32 kts while still keeping the excellent weapons mix.

Stability should be at least 1.1, giving you the ability to remain afloat after taking on water from battle damage. Thinning the deck armor should help this.

It would be nice to improve the seakeeping a bit. It is inevitable that weight will increase over time as more AA guns and FC equipment are added. If seakeeping is only 1.0 to begin with then it will be .95 after the new equipment is added. This is not a matter of crew comfort. Better sea keeping allows you to maintain speed in heavy seas, and the crew will fight better if they are not sea sick.

xtvpry

Improvements

[-]

Posts: 2006

( 2-Jan-2008 00:46:24)

USS Oregon, USA Battlecruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:

33,726 t light; 35,891 t standard; 38,958 t normal; 41,412 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)

(813.99 ft / 800.00 ft) x 102.00 ft x (30.00 / 31.44 ft)

(248.10 m / 243.84 m) x 31.09 m x (9.14 / 9.58 m)

Armament:

12 - 12.00" / 305 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,140.00lbs / 517.10kg shells, 150 per gun

Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model

4 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread

2 raised mounts - superfiring

16 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 450 per gun

Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model

8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread

24 - 1.10" / 27.9 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.67lbs / 0.30kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model

6 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread

12 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model

12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread

Weight of broadside 14,646 lbs / 6,643 kg

Armour:

- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)

Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m

Ends: Unarmoured

Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm

2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 4.00" / 102 mm For and Aft decks

Forecastle: 4.00" / 102 mm Quarter deck: 4.00" / 102 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,

Geared drive, 3 shafts, 159,271 shp / 118,816 Kw = 32.00 kts

Range 9,000nm at 16.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 5,520 tons

Complement:

1,386 - 1,802

Cost:

£16.950 million / $67.800 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 2,357 tons, 6.0 %

Armour: 11,965 tons, 30.7 %

- Belts: 4,622 tons, 11.9 %

- Armament: 2,643 tons, 6.8 %

- Armour Deck: 4,453 tons, 11.4 %

- Conning Tower: 248 tons, 0.6 %

Machinery: 4,361 tons, 11.2 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,542 tons, 37.3 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,233 tons, 13.4 %

Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.3 %

- Hull below water: 500 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

57,220 lbs / 25,955 Kg = 66.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04

Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m

Roll period: 18.1 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck,

a normal bow and large transom stern

Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.557 / 0.565

Length to Beam Ratio: 7.84 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 32.70 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):

Fore end, Aft end

- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Average freeboard: 22.64 ft / 6.90 m

Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.3 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.5 %

Waterplane Area: 59,688 Square feet or 5,545 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 190 lbs/sq ft or 928 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.98

- Longitudinal: 1.23

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent

Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Dave Bender

Improvements

[-]

Posts: 5838

( 2-Jan-2008 01:20:31)

That looks good. A perfect cruiser squadron flagship.

Pardon my ignorance, but what causes this? The forward teak deck on my cruiser squadron flagship will be all yucky looking. The brass will tarnish also.

Ship tends to be wet forward

Rick Robinson

[-]

Posts: 1679

( 2-Jan-2008 08:00:49)

Dave Bender wrote:
That looks good. A perfect cruiser squadron flagship.

Pardon my ignorance, but what causes this? The forward teak deck on my cruiser squadron flagship will be all yucky looking. The brass will tarnish also.
Ship tends to be wet forward

You need more freeboard forward.

Since it is way downthread, I'm reposting my 9 x 12" battlecruiser. No AA armament fitted, but 800 tons of misc. weight to work with. I would rather have seakeeping of 1.20, but I'll either need to shave some armor, reduce the misc. weight allowance, or put on a bit of cheatie tonnage.

I don't think you're going to pass this or any 35,000 ton ship off as a cruiser, politically speaking, but the 12" gun still works well for you on that level, because it looks like a show of restraint, a la Dunkerque. The truth is that it has nothing to do with restraint, and everything to do with what armament you can fit on a 35,000 ton ship required to make 32 plus knots and have protection against a Kongo. But it still looks like you're showing restraint.

USS Iowa, BC-1, United States battlecruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:
33,428 t light; 34,892 t standard; 39,086 t normal; 42,440 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(818.86 ft / 800.00 ft) x 100.00 ft x (30.00 / 32.01 ft)
(249.59 m / 243.84 m) x 30.48 m x (9.14 / 9.76 m)

Armament:
9 - 12.00" / 305 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,102.32lbs / 500.00kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 250 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 10,870 lbs / 4,931 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.00" / 76 mm 450.00 ft / 137.16 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 6.00" / 152 mm For and Aft decks

- Conning towers: Forward 18.00" / 457 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 193,026 shp / 143,997 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,548 tons

Complement:
1,389 - 1,806

Cost:
£16.008 million / $64.031 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,823 tons, 4.7 %
Armour: 11,842 tons, 30.3 %
- Belts: 3,765 tons, 9.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 899 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 1,424 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 5,308 tons, 13.6 %
- Conning Tower: 447 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 5,285 tons, 13.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,677 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,658 tons, 14.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 800 tons, 2.0 %
- Hull below water: 200 tons
- Hull above water: 200 tons
- On freeboard deck: 200 tons
- Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
67,999 lbs / 30,844 Kg = 78.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 9.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
Metacentric height 8.2 ft / 2.5 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 46 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
an extended bulbous bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.580
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.52 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 29.75 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 33.00 ft / 10.06 m, 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 27.00 ft / 8.23 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Average freeboard: 25.53 ft / 7.78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 197.4 %
Waterplane Area: 58,307 Square feet or 5,417 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 848 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

xtvpry

[-]

Posts: 2008

( 2-Jan-2008 11:49:54)

Wet forward? As someone once said, 'all the big battleships tended to be 'wet forward'. One of the worst battleships for being wet forward was USS Iowa. And what about HMS Hood, the stern was like a submarine in a heavy sea? Not to mention Scharnhorst and her sister, when trying to escape from Renown shipped so much green water that their A and B turrets were unusable and they had so-called Atlantic bows. No one today says that the Iowa design was fundamentally flawed or that the Scharnhorst design was flawed because they tended to bury their heads into the sea.
By shaving off 2ft of belt, I have increased the freeboard to the extent that the design is no longer 'wet forward'.

USS Oregon, USA Battlecruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:

33,726 t light; 35,891 t standard; 38,958 t normal; 41,412 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)

(815.85 ft / 800.00 ft) x 102.00 ft x (30.00 / 31.44 ft)

(248.67 m / 243.84 m) x 31.09 m x (9.14 / 9.58 m)

Armament:

12 - 12.00" / 305 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,140.00lbs / 517.10kg shells, 150 per gun

Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model

4 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread

2 raised mounts - superfiring

16 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 450 per gun

Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model

8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread

24 - 1.10" / 27.9 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.67lbs / 0.30kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model

6 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread

12 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model

12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread

Weight of broadside 14,646 lbs / 6,643 kg

Armour:

- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)

Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m

Ends: Unarmoured

Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm

2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 4.00" / 102 mm For and Aft decks

Forecastle: 4.00" / 102 mm Quarter deck: 4.00" / 102 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,

Geared drive, 3 shafts, 159,271 shp / 118,816 Kw = 32.00 kts

Range 9,000nm at 16.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 5,520 tons

Complement:

1,386 - 1,802

Cost:

£16.950 million / $67.800 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 2,357 tons, 6.0 %

Armour: 11,600 tons, 29.8 %

- Belts: 4,109 tons, 10.5 %

- Armament: 2,791 tons, 7.2 %

- Armour Deck: 4,453 tons, 11.4 %

- Conning Tower: 248 tons, 0.6 %

Machinery: 4,361 tons, 11.2 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,907 tons, 38.3 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,233 tons, 13.4 %

Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.3 %

- Hull below water: 500 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

60,228 lbs / 27,319 Kg = 69.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06

Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m

Roll period: 17.8 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck,

a normal bow and large transom stern

Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.557 / 0.565

Length to Beam Ratio: 7.84 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 32.70 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):

Fore end, Aft end

- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 34.00 ft / 10.36 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m

- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m

- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m

- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m

- Average freeboard: 24.80 ft / 7.56 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.3 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 196.9 %

Waterplane Area: 59,688 Square feet or 5,545 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 191 lbs/sq ft or 932 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.97

- Longitudinal: 1.36

- Overall: 1.00

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent

Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Last Edited By: xtvpry 3-Jan-2008 00:15:19. Edited 2 times.

Dave Bender

Shaving off 2ft of belt to increase forward freeboard

[-]

Posts: 5843

( 2-Jan-2008 16:11:42)

I don't like that trade off. War with Japan is on the horizon. When the shells start flying the belt armor is worth a lot more then shiny brass and a highly polished forward deck. Just as long as the forward turrets don't submerge in a heavy sea.

Until the war begins the deck gang will be issued with a plentiful supply of brass polish and holystone. Busy sailors are happy sailors.

Rick Robinson

I know that pink is the new black ...

[-]

Posts: 1680

( 2-Jan-2008 16:27:32)

But is 36,000 tons the new 35,000 tons?

xtvpry wrote:

USS Oregon, USA Battlecruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:

33,726 t light; 35,891 t standard; 38,958 t normal; 41,412 t full load

Remember to address your remarks to the Chair, and you might want to begin by thanking the Committee for the privilege of testifying.

Alternatively, feel free to clarify what standard displacement I can design to.

Dave Bender

Is 36,000 tons the new 35,000 tons?

[-]

Posts: 5846

( 2-Jan-2008 19:31:00)

Since when did 35,000 tons matter? The British Nelson class are the only dreadnoughts that actually came in under the treaty limit.

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/battleships/us_wwii.htm
What does matter is that these "large heavy cruisers" remain considerably smaller then the 37,484 standard ton North Carolina class. Otherwise they are likely to be cancelled, in favor of more 27 kt battleships. Ideally these CBs should displace no more then 30,000 standard tons, so that ignorant congressmen can tell the difference between a BB and a ship designed to kill cruisers. However that means losing the 4th main gun turret and some armor.

The 36,000 ton U.S.S. Oregon design truly is a cruiser killer par excellent (even if the forward deck is wet and covered with yucky looking seaweed). I want a pair of these CBs backing up the American cruiser fleet at Guadalcanal.

xtvpry

Tinkering to bring closer to 35K tons.

[-]

Posts: 2009

( 3-Jan-2008 00:12:31)

USS Oregon, USA Battlecruiser laid down 1938

Displacement:

33,021 t light; 35,171 t standard; 38,194 t normal; 40,613 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)

(814.92 ft / 800.00 ft) x 100.00 ft x (30.00 / 31.45 ft)

(248.39 m / 243.84 m) x 30.48 m x (9.14 / 9.58 m)

Armament:

12 - 12.00" / 305 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,140.00lbs / 517.10kg shells, 150 per gun

Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model

4 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread

2 raised mounts - superfiring

16 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 450 per gun

Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model

8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread

24 - 1.10" / 27.9 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.67lbs / 0.30kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model

6 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread

12 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1,000 per gun

Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model

12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread

Weight of broadside 14,646 lbs / 6,643 kg

Armour:

- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)

Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m

Ends: Unarmoured

Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)

Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm

2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 4.00" / 102 mm For and Aft decks

Forecastle: 4.00" / 102 mm Quarter deck: 4.00" / 102 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,

Geared drive, 3 shafts, 157,179 shp / 117,255 Kw = 32.00 kts

Range 9,000nm at 16.00 kts

Bunker at max displacement = 5,441 tons

Complement:

1,365 - 1,775

Cost:

£16.766 million / $67.063 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 2,357 tons, 6.2 %

Armour: 11,350 tons, 29.7 %

- Belts: 4,098 tons, 10.7 %

- Armament: 2,643 tons, 6.9 %

- Armour Deck: 4,365 tons, 11.4 %

- Conning Tower: 244 tons, 0.6 %

Machinery: 4,304 tons, 11.3 %

Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,510 tons, 38.0 %

Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,173 tons, 13.5 %

Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.3 %

- Hull below water: 500 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):

55,083 lbs / 24,985 Kg = 63.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03

Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m

Roll period: 18.2 seconds

Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %

- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78

Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck,

a normal bow and large transom stern

Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.557 / 0.565

Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1

'Natural speed' for length: 32.65 kts

Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %

Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66

Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees

Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):

Fore end, Aft end

- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 32.00 ft / 9.75 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Average freeboard: 22.80 ft / 6.95 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.2 %

- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 179.6 %

Waterplane Area: 58,517 Square feet or 5,436 Square metres

Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %

Structure weight / hull surface area: 191 lbs/sq ft or 935 Kg/sq metre

Hull strength (Relative):

- Cross-sectional: 0.99

- Longitudinal: 1.25

- Overall: 1.01

Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent

Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Last Edited By: xtvpry 3-Jan-2008 00:14:47. Edited 1 times.

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