As a results, the 1.1" HMGs were removed from USN warships, replaced by 20mm, and 40mm guns, but the .50 cal M-2s were retained on those ships that had them. The M-2s were not installed on new build ships.
But, why was the 1.1" AAW HMG such a dog?
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Ed |
Was the USN 1.1" AA gun good for anything? |
Lead | |
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Posts: 2207 (23-Dec-2007 16:37:43) |
The USN 1.1" AA Gun was aboard a lot of USN warships just prior to the US start of WWII. It was being installed on new build BBs, like both NCs and the
first two SoDaks. But, the gun proved ineffective against aircraft. The 20mm was much more effective, and for airplanes really close to your ship, the .50
caliber M-2 HMG was more effective than the 1.1" HMG.
As a results, the 1.1" HMGs were removed from USN warships, replaced by 20mm, and 40mm guns, but the .50 cal M-2s were retained on those ships that had them. The M-2s were not installed on new build ships. But, why was the 1.1" AAW HMG such a dog? |
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Hardrada55 |
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Posts: 42 (23-Dec-2007 17:36:59) |
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Electric Joe |
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Posts: 3770 (23-Dec-2007 18:04:24) Straw Boss |
Ed wrote: The "ineffectiveness" of the 1.1" has been exaggerated. It was a temperamental weapon if not cared for properly. Well maintained 1.1" worked very well as proven repeatedly by USS Enterprise (CV-6) and even by USS South Dakota (BB-57). In fact, much of SoDak's shooting at Santa Cruz was accomplished with 1.1" as she did not have a uniform battery of 40mm at that point. By comparison to the 1.1", the 40mm was a heavier weapon, but easier to maintain, so naturally it had more stopping power if it scored. Easy maintenance made it sailor friendly, especially when a lot of those sailors were enlistees of draftees of limited skills and training.More stopping power and easier maintenance are winners any day, and it is no mystery why the 40mm displaced the 1.1" quad, but that 1.1" quads did great execution, especially against fragile Japanese aircraft, until replaced by the improved weapons. |
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jlyons97 |
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Posts: 1154 (23-Dec-2007 18:30:10) |
Ed wrote: That's a very absolute statement, and by the evidence not true. Read Machine Guns by Ian Hogg for a development history. One design goal was minimum recoil transmitted to
the structure of the ship platform, the gun inter alia intended for DDs and smaller as well as larger ships. Another, re the ammunition, was to be effective
against fabric coverd airplanes, which meant a very sensitive fuze, which caused problems until updated. This projectile was indeed fired by the 1.1, but we
can hardly blame the gun for it. However, others have, to what end I know not. Another issue was the ability to slew the barrels to track targets at high
elevation (dive bombers, i.e.). This was a good idea, but only contributed to maintenance issue and the feature was eventually locked out. It reminds me of
tri-stablizied guns and directors - too much of a good thing in a salt water environment.
I recall a couple of accounts of it in action, one from CL Helena at PH, where it worked well that day, although it had not on other days. Another involving the siege of Corregidor where a mount intended for an Asiatic fleet ship was gotten out of Cavite and set up on the island. Recall US AA of the time was water-cooled .50s and ancient 3". The 1.1, once up and working virtually insulated the Rock from low-flying bombers and strafers. Finally, in USS Houston's last battle 1.1s were firing until the end. After the CO gave the order to abandon ship, he and the rest of the conning tower party, having left its protection, were slain be a IJN round that destroyed the 1.1 in their near vicinity. Quoting Friedman: " In retrospect it appears that the defects of the 1.1 in were no more than teething problems, that the BuOrd design was basically sound" Although it lacked the range and hitting power of the 40mm, which fired a larger projectile, you statement that the 20mm was much more effective, if you're speaking of hitting power, is wrong on the evidence, only exceeded in 'wrongness' by the claim for the .50 |
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hoist40 |
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Posts: 958 (23-Dec-2007 18:44:10) |
One thing that has to be remembered is that since ships were limited by treaty, this meant that weapons were also indirectly limited by treaty as well. The quad 1.1 weighed less then half of what a quad 40mm weighed. Until the treaties were abandoned there was little reason to develop heavier more powerful weapons if they could not be put on the treaty sized ships. And even with the treaty abandoned you still had treaty sized ship which had to be stripped of non-priority material and overloaded to fit the more powerful weapons. On the US treaty DD's they usually had to lose a 5 inch gun or a torpedo mount or both to fit the 40mm and 20mm weapons The British 5.25 in my opinion suffered from the same problem, in order to fit it onto treaty BB's they had to shave down the size of the mount and limit training and loading machinery and this limited it's effectiveness against aircraft. It was only when they built the unlimited Vanguard that they developed a larger heaver mount that was successful. So if you tried to sell the US Navy a 40mm or 20mm mount in 1938 they would look at it and say, looks good, but it won't fit our treaty limited ships without overloading them since we are pushing the limits even with .50 cal and 1.1 inch. This even went into the war years since most of the war built ships were based off treaty ships. It was not until the Fletcher for example that treaty thinking was abandoned for DD's |
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Dave Bender |
Limited by treaty | ||
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Posts: 5748 (23-Dec-2007 20:12:20) |
I don't buy that excuse.
Aircraft performance improved by leaps and bounds between WWI and WWII. Building a ship based AA weapons system that could track 300+ mph aircraft was cutting edge technology in 1940. If you look at other ship based AA weapons available in 1940 it appears that most were far from perfect. American, British, German and Japanese naval AA systems all had problems during this era. |
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hoist40 |
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Posts: 959 (23-Dec-2007 20:31:13) |
I don't buy that excuse. And there was no treaty limits on aircraft. Yet for example destroyers were limited to either 1,500 or 1,850 tons and as seen by what was built they were all overweight when post treaty weapons were installed. Look at all the later DD which were built after the treaty designs were abandoned, they were all much larger If you look at other ship based AA weapons available in 1940 it appears that most were far from perfect. American, British, German and Japanese naval AA systems all had problems during this era. And they were all picked based on fitting on treaty sized ships. It was not the only reason but I think a big factor was that nobody was going to pick up the 40mm quad gun to develop in 1938 when they already knew that it would not fit on their ships. Imagine the uproar in peacetime if they picked the gun and then had to strip off the boats, a five inch gun, a torpedo mount and reduce stabilty on a Farragut class destroyer just to fit the new guns. Even late in WW2 the US navy developed the twin 20mm, not because it was more effective, but because it would save weight and cut down the number of crew since the war build ships were overweight and overcroweded |
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Gene Slover |
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Posts: 5943 (23-Dec-2007 20:38:52) |
The 1.1 and the 20mm shot down the most japanese planes during the first 2 years of the war of any USN AA gun.
The Mark 14 Gun Sight was quickly adapted to the 1.1 as the gun sights became available. http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/AMMUNITION/GUN-SIGHT-MARK-14.html http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/AMMUNITION/40MM-GUN-BOOK.html |
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Tiornu |
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Posts: 6861 (23-Dec-2007 21:33:01) Corn Boss |
As jlyons97 has said, the gun was meant as a light-weight solution. The idea was to provide an upgrade from the 50cal that could be quickly fixed in almost any
spot on any ship. Unfortunately, someone made a fateful decision early on; since the 1.1in would have one fourth the RoF of a 50cal, all mounts would have four
barrels. So the lightweight weapon became a bulky caricature of itself, with all the maintenance and complexity issues compounded. Take away that one dubious
decision, and the gun would have entered service much earlier and might have been debugged prewar. Maybe the USN them declines the Oerlikon....
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E F Draaijers |
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Registered Member
Posts: 66 (23-Dec-2007 21:47:07) |
The USN 1.1in quadmounting was far too complex to be effecient and lacked personelfriendly components for mainentance when operating the mount. The guntube
itself was not so bad, but a bit lightweight against aircraft and shortranged. The far more heavier 40mm Bofors round of some 2 lbs, was twice the weight of
the 1.1in gunsshell and had more range and was more multipurpose in nature, meaning it was also effective with some results against ground and navaltargets.
Besides that, the multibarrle 40mm Bofors mountings were much easier to operate than the older 1.1 in quads, meaning they were more reliable in combat. Same is
true for the 20mm Oerlikon mountings, which were actually replacing the .50cal M-2 machineguns on most ships, since it had more hittingpower than the M-2 and
was just as easy to operate.
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emc |
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Posts: 3340 (23-Dec-2007 22:02:57) |
hoist40 wrote: I suspect that some of your logic is correct, but not complete. The USN, the RN, etc, all radically overestimated the effectiveness of their AAA pre-war.
The 1.1in (about 27.5mm) and 0.5in (about 12.7mm) weren't chosen because of treaty limits; they were chosen because they were thought to be optimum.
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Dave Bender |
Nobody going to pick up the 40mm quad gun because of size | ||
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Posts: 5751 (23-Dec-2007 22:08:26) |
It was not the only reason but I think a big factor was that nobody was going to pick up the 40mm quad gun to develop in 1938 when they already knew that it would not fit on their ships. Imagine the uproar in peacetime if they picked the gun and then had to strip off the boats, a five inch gun, a torpedo mount and reduce stabilty on a Farragut class destroyer just to fit the new guns. Hmmm. There does appear to be a tendency to make light flak as lightweight as possible prior to WWII. However except for the ultra lightweight Japanese 25mm, none of the weight savings are that great. A weight savings of 250 kg is important if we are talking about an army weapon mounted on a half track, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the weight of a naval vessel. Japanese 25mm/60 weight = 115 kg. German 3.7cm/83 weight = 243 kg. Italian 37mm/54 weight = 277 kg. U.S. 1.1"/75 weight = about 300 kg (252 kg without breech). Fremch 37mm/50 weight = 300 kg. British 2-pdr Mk VIII weight = 386 kg. Bofors 40mm/56 weight = ~500 kg. For comparison purposes, the German Army Flakvierling weighed 1,500 kg complete (4 x 2cm autocannon plus the manually operated gun mount). A very light and compact weapons system compared to 4 of the above guns mounted in a quad turret, and it was highly effective. The German Army used thousands of them. But no navy (including the German Navy) showed much interest in a similiar system as far as I am aware. |
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W D Martin |
1.1" | ||
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Posts: 557 (24-Dec-2007 00:17:00) |
My neighbor was a cook on three different ships, from 1939-1945. He was also a guncrewman for a 1.1", he liked it, and spoke well of it. He declared it to
be "finicky" ( his words were a bit saltier than that...) but said it "shot the hell" out of Japanese planes.
later, Bill
Your Text Signature ...
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hoist40 |
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Posts: 960 (24-Dec-2007 01:02:22) |
A weight savings of 250 kg is important if we are talking about an army weapon mounted on a half track, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the weight of a naval vessel. But its not just 250kg, its also multiple mountings, additional power systems to drive the heavier mounts, weightier ammunition, larger magazines, enlarged ammo lifts, etc etc The quad 40mm weighed twice as much as the quad 1.1 inch. Just putting four quad 40mm means 40 tons instead of 20 tons. Plus the additional structure to support it, plus the additional power to operate it, plus the larger magazines and heavier ammo. All this on ships that were all ready at or over their limits. They were already using aluminum in places for structure on ships just to keep the weight down. For comparison purposes, the German Army Flakvierling weighed 1,500 kg complete (4 x 2cm autocannon plus the manually operated gun mount). A very light and compact weapons system compared to 4 of the above guns mounted in a quad turret, and it was highly effective. The German Army used thousands of them. But no navy (including the German Navy) showed much interest in a similiar system as far as I am aware. I may be wrong but wasn't elevation and traverse manually operated on the Flakvierling ? On a land system you probably could get away with a manual system while on a rolling pitching ship you would need power operated for a heavy mounting like that. I seem to remember seeing movies of the Flakvierling on land where the crew men would grab the mount and help the gunner turn the gun mount if they needed to swing the gun rapidly in a new direction. On a rolling pitching ship this become much harder From what I understand the US twin 20mm mount was the most you could handle manually on a ship and even that was a bit much for some crewmembers. The 1.1 was power operated from what I have read which makes it more in the 40mm class. If a Navy was going to go with all the complications of a power operated mount they probably wanted something more powerful then a 20mm. I am not saying that the treaty was the only reason for the choice of smaller weapons but when you read the descriptions of how hard they worked and how many sacrifices they made to keep the weight down on treaty ships it must have been a factor. |
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bager1968 |
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Posts: 2707 (24-Dec-2007 12:57:51) |
I have always wondered how the 1.1" would have worked in a twin mount?
I bet you could have fitted more guns onto a given ship, and any failure/jam would not drop the AA fire as much. |
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Dave Bender |
Flakvierling elevation and traverse | ||
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Posts: 5753 (24-Dec-2007 17:23:17) |
I may be wrong but wasn't elevation and traverse manually operated on the Flakvierling ?
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emc |
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Posts: 3344 (24-Dec-2007 17:40:15) |
I think that rapid traverse for WW2-era AAA was more useful for changing targets or for bringing an aircraft under fire than for actually tracking targets.
After all, pre-PGM, for an aircraft's weapons to hit a ship (or any other target), it would be on a collision course, which meant there would be no angular
motion.
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Gene Slover |
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Posts: 5950 (24-Dec-2007 19:33:19) |
Unless the target is comimg straight at you he is not your enemy.
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Dolphinstriker |
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Posts: 1686 (24-Dec-2007 21:25:39) |
The USN, the RN, etc, all radically overestimated the effectiveness of their AAA pre-war. The 1.1in (about 27.5mm) and 0.5in (about 12.7mm) weren't chosen because of treaty limits; they were chosen because they were thought to be optimum. This may be true, but it wasn't that the USN, at least, was satisfied with the guns available. In writing about shipborne AA in general ("US Naval Weapons") Friedman says, "In fact it was recognized before World War Two, that actual hits by by any type of antiaircraft weapon would be rare. However, the prospect of being hit would tend to distract the pilot and bombardier of an incoming bomber." The light, fast firing weapons, such as the .50 caliber and 1.1 inch guns, were intended to counter a specific type of attack, the dive bomber, because it was realized heavier, slow firing guns had no chance to hit a target whose vectors were rapidly changing. In 1929, the Division of Fleet Training of the US Navy issued a memo stating, "At present we have but few machine guns in the service available for for use against [dive-bomber] attack.....The .30 caliber machine gun is of too small hitting power to be effective for anti-aircraft use, and an analysis of the .50 caliber machine gun performance indicates that it is but little better than the .30 caliber because of the type of trajectory and of certain ballistic characteristics. Neither the .30 caliber nor the .50 caliber projectile is capable of carrying the explosive charge necessary to damage a plane sufficiently to ensure it's failure in flight, even were this permitted under International Law." The 1.1 inch gun was an attempt to develop a fast firing, lightweight weapons which could be mounted high up in the superstructure of large vessels and also on the upper decks of smaller ships, yet would fire a projectile large enough to accommodate a useful explosive charge that would do significant damage to the attack planes of the period. The requirements of providing a high elevation (90 degrees), a slewing capability of 30 degrees each side, independent of train, and power operation to provide quick response, made the gun excessively complex, heavy, and difficult to maintain. The requirement for an explosive projectile with a sensitive fuse made the ammunition dangerous to handle and also a hazard for nearby ships. Friedman says that, "Thus is 1940 both of the standard US naval automatic weapons [.50 caliber and 1.1 inch] were considered inadequate, although there was a major ongoing program for their production." Aircraft technology had evolved extremely rapidly between 1930 and 1940, so that the performance and robustness of aircraft had increased remarkably; weapons technology had not kept pace, the 1.1 inch was a 1930's weapon in a 1940's air war. |
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maomatt13 |
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Registered Member
Posts: 1 (24-Dec-2007 23:56:52) |
Dave Bender wrote:For comparison purposes, the German Army Flakvierling weighed 1,500 kg complete (4 x 2cm autocannon plus the manually operated gun mount). A very light and compact weapons system compared to 4 of the above guns mounted in a quad turret, and it was highly effective. The German Army used thousands of them. But no navy (including the German Navy) showed much interest in a similiar system as far as I am aware. Actually, the German's did install the 4 X 2cm quads shipboard. They were looked at as a solution to growing allied airpower and were mounted on
specially built Flak Submarines. See link
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Dave Bender |
German's did install | ||
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Posts: 5758 (25-Dec-2007 00:11:10) |
The Germans did lots of things out of desperation, after it was too late to matter. They also began adding the Bofors 40mm weapon to surface ships.
However the KM did not appear interested in either weapon prior to the start of WWII. Apparently getting the crap bombed out of you causes an attitude adjustment, just as it did for the U.S. after Pearl Harbor. |
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