18 escorts doesn't look far off.
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hulahoop7 |
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Posts: 1015 (28-Nov-2007 15:26:08) |
All this talk of blood on the carpet makes me think that T45 07 08 are now absolutely cut. The T22s must be looking shakey too.
18 escorts doesn't look far off. |
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Colin Mc |
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Posts: 565 (29-Nov-2007 00:43:59) |
Because of timings I don't see how the T22s and early T23s can now be replaced: if there is only a four man department to keep the home fires burning,
which presumably will stay in place for a year or two and then burgeon into something bigger that eventually, maybe, over several more years will emerge with a
proposal which has then got to get approval and which has then got to be designed in detail and then built, means that what we are really talking about is
replacement of the newer 2087-equipped T23s, the first of which decommissions in 2021. So in effect no funding is needed, apart from four salaries, for some
years. It's all a game really, ain't it! And the name of the game is not to spend anymore on frigates. It knocks the plan for one surface combatant a
year into a cocked hat. Presumably DIS II will reflect this. And that's just savings in the RN! No wonder Drayson jumped ship.
I'm still hoping/expecting for a T45 07/08 sweetner though. Oh, and some PFI Constabulary PVs as an extra sweetner - to take up some of the slack as the T22s and early T23s disappear. |
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hulahoop7 |
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Posts: 1016 (29-Nov-2007 11:59:36) |
Well the T45s apparently cost £600m a pop at the moment after development costs are factored out. I don't think that's bad. A sensible government might
say.. keep 'em building and work to reduce costs further, particularly if the Saudis buy a couple too.
If something doesn't happen soon they'll be thousands of workers in labour heart land seats feeling betrayed and cheated in 2015. A huge hole could appear after the last CVF is floated out. |
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perfectgeneral |
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Posts: 247 (29-Nov-2007 12:28:54) |
If you figure that four hulls ensure one at sea all the time, eight are needed to escort in two places. I would add one to allow for attrition. This implies a
third batch of three should be ordered. It may never happen, but it should.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Want10Destroyers/
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/4Subs88Months/
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Colin Mc |
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Posts: 566 (29-Nov-2007 14:35:25) |
If the MoD are ducking out of the 15-year deal - and it is difficult to see how they are not - then surely they will have to offer something in return to the
new shipbuilding organisation (I've forgotten its new name) and that can only be some more T45s in the shape of 07 and 08, which anyway don't yet seem
quite dead. The question is would more follow. Could they squeak out a 09 and even a 10?
But I still think the other interesting option is a through-life PFI deal on OPVHs - not necessarily Clyde lookalikes. Have a look at this, if you haven't seen it already, I've nicked it from Richard's site (god bless 'im). It's VT's proposal for C3 and is of very recent vintage: "VT C3 Concept (2007) In September 2007 VT Shipbuilding, part of VT Group, announced a design concept tailored to the C3 element of the FSC programme - a general purpose vessels for worldwide deployment to fulfil tasks including minehunting, survey work and patrol duties. It suggested that the first of class could enter service as early as 2012, although this seems very unlikely VT has utilised the hull of the Ocean Patrol Vessel (OPV) that it is building for the Royal Navy of Oman to develop the FSC solution, although the ship has a larger equipment fit that increases displacement to just over 3,000 tonnes. VT's C3 design would have speeds in the region of 25 knots and would be diesel-powered, while there would be accommodation for up to 76. The ships would be built in steel but with provision for FRP composite in areas such as the masts. The ships would essentially be compartmentalised by having the assets of a patrol vessel forward, while aft the ship would be equipped for its MCM and/or survey role. In its patrol role, armament would include guns of 76mm or 30mm calibre and provision for surface-to-air missiles if required. MCM resources would provide a task force with front-line minehunting capability rather than having to wait for slower dedicated minehunting assets to arrive as present. The design would include the option for a flight deck to accommodate a helicopter up to Merlin size and a weather protected working deck which would accommodate four 11 metre rigid inflatables or unmanned surface vessels. These could be deployed either by ship's crane or via a stern ramp that would include an integral launch and recovery system. Space is also available for two 20 ft ISO containers to carry additional MCM or survey assets. Additional assets may be transported on the flight deck and deployed by the ship's crane at the expense of the capacity to simultaneously carry out helicopter operations. VT has offered the financing and support model employed for the RN's River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels, i.e. VT would own the FSC vessels and charter them to the Ministry of Defence. VT Export Sales Director Sym Taylor explained: "In this case, it makes more economic sense for the customer to contract for the lease of these ships over ten years, as opposed to five years for the Rivers. However, the principle would remain the same with the customer saving capital expenditure by paying for use on the basis of VT guaranteeing and delivering the required capability. VT suggests that further savings would be made by using existing equipment technology and introducing commonality across the whole of the FSC class in elements such as engines, other key machinery and command systems. This would also enable maximum efficiencies to be derived from training and maintenance." |
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Anthony58 |
Guide to the Royal Navy 2008 | ||
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Posts: 2247 (29-Nov-2007 23:53:16) |
Warships International Fleet Review Guide to the Royal Navy 2008 has just been published. There is a very interesting interview with Commander Paul Tebbit, who
has a key role with the RN FCS. He says C1 and C2 would be monohulls and C3 could be a Catamaran or Swath and that "capability and potential for
expansion will drive the size of FCS". He thinks that escort numbers would be broadly the same as at the moment and feels that the Japanese Hyuga class,
despite its aviation capabilities "lacks the the coastal suppression capabilities that the FSC brings to the Task Group, as an essential part of UK
Maritime Manoeurvre policies".
September 2007 was the date for the inaugural Programe Board for FSC, with the enthasis of "Through-Life Capability Management". It is well worth buying. |
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Colin Mc |
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Posts: 567 (30-Nov-2007 14:46:20) |
Anthony is down as the last poster but I don't see it - but I did read it last night about the Commander in charge of the frigate development group talking
to Warship International.
I can only say, how many FSC programmes have there been; how many inaugural meetings? I think that if there is a Commander in charge then that says it all, it's a token gesture and going no where. At least S2C2 had a Commodore as boss. I have no doubt that he is enthusiastic about the job he is doing - playing official fantasy fleets - but I doubt that it will impinge on reality any time soon. Doesn't mean to say that it won't be superseded by a large solution programme, though, but not while the MoD is cash-strapped - and looking ahead over the coming decade, it's difficult to see when it won't be. IMHO |
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WIWD |
RN Guide 2008 | ||
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Posts: 245 (30-Nov-2007 21:18:03) |
It is my understanding that Paul Tebbet is the "Desk Officer" Cdr within DEC(AWE), who is incidentally Cdre Brunton, former head of the S2C2 team,
which suggests stronger interest in FSC that at first seems. Desk Officers are usually military Commanders or Lt Commanders (or their other service
equivalents), although for several years, the Desk Officer for MARS was a civil servant.
The DE&S team is part of the Frigates IPT and, according to my contacts, will be doubling in size in the new year. |
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