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Sunk at Narvik |
Theres more to this.. | ||
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Posts: 2110 (12-Nov-2007 23:48:43) |
Don't forget the SHAR is not quite gone as there are around a dozen still knocking around on various west country airfields
used for "taxiing" training or somesuch nonsense. I'm sure they'd soon find themselves aboard Vinnys again if we desperately needed them- and
if they were scattered amongst the GR9's one per flight the lack of radar on the GR's would be negated? My own cunning theory is that the RN made a big
fuss of retiring them whilst actually preserving the last few from inevitable attrition over the next few years until Lightning arrives.
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Scouse |
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Posts: 223 (13-Nov-2007 00:05:47) |
Whatever the advantages of the FA2 over any Harrier II as an fleet air defence fighter, it had two fundamental problems:
- Two different Harrier types in simultaneous UK service when we barely have the budget for one. - More limited A2G capability and range than the other type at a time when these became the top priority. Aah but Nathan the FA2 had more A2G capability than the GR9 has A2A. Perhaps it could not lay down huge clumps of dumb 1000lb'ers with pinpoint accuracy...but no-one does that anymore anyway because of collaterol effects. You'll see plenty of images of USMC AV-8B Plus's on ops carrying a single 500lb PGM under one wing and a targetting pod under the other and thats pretty much it!. You want an FA2 to have a precision strike capability, in h'n'h conditions, without adding uprate engines?. You buy lighter ordnance!. 500lb JDAMs off the Yanks, GBU-38 IIRC - bringback weight exceeded by a pair of 500lb'ers I think not - save for the most extreme circumstances!. Likewise Brimstone - a triple rack per wing is not going to tax even the poor Pegusus 106 too greatly in bringback weight terms. Hell sending an FA2 up with just the twin ADEN pods would be valuable in Afghanistan today!. Lastly FA2 could deploy the ALARM missile, leastwise I've seen ALARM rounds under the wings of FA2's, and so had a perfectly adequate SEAD capability which I believe is missing from GR7/9. The possibilities existed to maintain FA2 aboard the carriers in preference to the RAF version - that they were binned was nothing to do with operational capability. When it is accepted, as you state, that the budget didnt exist to support both types of Harrier (despite official claims made in the 2002 Defence Select Commitee report that it really was a decision taken on capability grounds) the problem must be seen as one of budget and not with the aircraft!. Although a common aircraft would have had to be optimised for range, payload and A2G, any residual air defence and anti-ship / naval recon capability would be better than the near-zero that we actually have and we would have the airframe numbers to support Afghanistan and carrier deployments As described above though PGMs are becoming lighter and cheaper. The US SDB (Small Diameter Bomb) is looking like an awesome weapon...its basically a latter-day Mk81 250lb slick JDAM with a wing kit!. Two of these from a single FA2, from 10 miles standoff, could have the same effects on a point target as half of todays 800 sqdn dropping dumb ordnance exposed to all sorts of 'trashfire' anti-air weaponry. The Kongsberg NSM is a 150km ranged standoff missile carrying a 250lb warhead with sea/land capable precision seeker....it weighs a little shy of 900lbs!. There is, and was, no reason whatsoever why the 'common aircraft' could not be truly multirole instead of a heavily optimised striker. |
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OSCSSW |
"When all is said and done it's not the crate but the MAN in | ||
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Posts: 2303 (13-Nov-2007 01:01:59) |
the crate." My view on the SHAR is that no other aircraft could provide the RN with a viable air defense at the time of the Falklands. Truth is
without the SHAR the Falklands would now be the Malvedes. Those FAA pilots, with or without the Aim9L, performd magnificently against staggering odds.
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Meeware |
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Posts: 1687 (16-Nov-2007 11:38:23) |
I may be miss interpreting senior cheif, but I'd have thought that had we decided to preplace the FRS1 with a derivative of the Harrier II with the BV
radar, and continued to train for and develop tactics for air defense, we'd be in a much better possition now- we'd have usable fleet air defense, and
a load more harriers and pilots capable of sharing the load in the ghan. The current force not only leaves the navy critically incapable of core duties, but
also runs the RAF into the ground providing the most minimal long term expeditionary commitments.
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Zen9 |
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Posts: 3239 (16-Nov-2007 12:00:40) |
Good point, no Shar whatver means the RN can't help out the RAF in the 'ghan.
Its the sheer scale of the parsimony that gets me, for what is effectively small change they'd scrapped Shar. |
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Sunk at Narvik |
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Posts: 2112 (16-Nov-2007 13:12:17) |
Not the parsimony, but the incompetence. Look at the education initiatives that have failed, the teen pregnancy sex education initiatives that cause a
rise in teen pregs, the billions poured away in NHS IT contracts, the scandal of the Kent MRSA deaths after unprecedented injection of billions, the
utter failure to get any grip at all over immigration, the scandal of millions of healthy Brits on welfare, the money being thrown at the Olympic bid..after
being utterly sick & tired of the Conservatives, I now find myself utterly sick & tired of Labour
<floats away> |
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Scouse |
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Posts: 224 (16-Nov-2007 14:55:25) |
Yeah lads, BUT, the reduction in numbers wasnt intentional on the FAA side as a part of the switch to Harrier GR. JFH was always meant to be 1 and 4 sqdns RAF
alongside 800 and 801 with 20 sqdn as the OCU. Putting a notional FGR Harrier into the equation does little to mitigate the losses because those losses were
little to do with the type swap anyway.
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Graeme65 |
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Posts: 219 (16-Nov-2007 21:09:16) |
The parsimony about naval aviation has been there for a long time, in the 80s it was two small frontline squadrons not three. If the FRS1 to FA2 upgrade had
been more extensive and included a new wing and an austere air to ground designation capability then maybe naval fixed wing air would have been more autonomous
of the RAF and the idea of dropping the Seajet entirely may not have been such an obvious cut. Putting RAF harriers on carriers was tactically sensible but
politically suicidal.
Sadly politicians of all colour fund what their supporters value and what they feel will get them re-elected and sadly that does not include providing air defence for warships at sea. I think British Governments for decades now have been very confident that we will never fight alone and that the US military will be there to do the heavy carrying. They have only been caught out by this once in 82 and then the forces bravery and ingenuity bailed them out, so its not such an unsafe bet. |
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Andy L |
Re the SHar against USAF F15C | ||
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Posts: 2817 (17-Nov-2007 00:41:05) |
I remember about six years ago on holiday in Scarborough I got chatting to a couple of Americans with crew cuts and square jaws in a pub. After a few rounds of
drinks it turned out they had just participated in a joint RN/USAF exercise over the North Sea.
The USAF were 'defending' the north east coast and the pussers were attacking. The attacking air fleet consisted of SHars (F/A2). According to the Americans the SHar was a very difficult aircraft to acquire visually over the sea thanks to its paint scheme. Radar acquisition was no more or less difficult than other types but apparantly the fact it was firmly subsonic made it hard for a Pilot or WSO to determine the scale of the threat, ie was it a fighter or attack type. The SHar's Blue Vixen/AMRAAM combination was in the opinion of the F15 crews far superior to their own in the air-to-air mode. They themselves had been quite literally chased away by a brace of SHars depite their own mounts far superior flight envelope; by the time they got a radar lock their own RWR alerted them to a 'missile' firing. In the words of one of the pilots they had to "....burn a hole in the clouds". By their account they rated the SHar F/A2 as the most capable air-combat fighter outside the USAF. Just for what its worth! Andy L
Your Text Signature ...
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reiverman |
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Posts: 11 (17-Nov-2007 12:38:16) |
For a bunch of self-righteous armchair warriors it's amazing how many of you spell defence, defense!
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