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 Eugen Pinak |
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Posts: 104 (17-Nov-2007 11:24:47) |
Dolphinstriker wrote: And at the same time supplying all the weapons they captured from Kwantung Army to Lin Biao's communist forces |
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Dave Bender |
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Posts: 5514 (17-Nov-2007 15:57:31) |
Eugen Pinak wrote: That is my take on events. However unless a document turns up in the Russian archives I doubt we will ever know the extent of this Russian assistance. Certainly the official Communist Chinese version of events cannot be trusted. |
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Dolphinstriker |
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Posts: 1585 (18-Nov-2007 01:41:15) |
And at the same time supplying all the weapons they captured from Kwantung Army to Lin Biao's communist forces Stalin's Soviet Union did not begin suppling arms in any numbers to Mao's (or Lin Biao's) forces until 1947 when it became obvious the Chinese communists would win the civil war and become the masters of China. This was because Stalin, even though he despised Mao, was a realist and knew he would eventually have to deal with a China under communist rule. When Stalin did allow arms to go to Mao's forces they were primarily the obsolete and decrepit Japanese equipment captured in Manchuria at the end of WW II. See; Robert B Asprey, "War in the Shadows; The Guerrilla in History, Volume One" pages 348-350, and Alvin Z. Rubinstein, "The Foreign Policy of the Soviet Union", pages 102-105, and pages 256-257 |
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Joshua Kintner |
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Registered Member
Posts: 202 (20-Nov-2007 05:31:21) |
From then on they were content to let the KMT weaken itself fighting the Japanese, while they stockpiled strength & supplies for the civil war that would follow victory over the Japanese. Except that with Japan focusing her strength on China alone, victory will not come for the KMT. Rather, the KMT will be eventually defeat in the East. I suspect that the KMT will be betrayed by the Communists when they try to retreat to the West. From there, the communists would sieze power, question is whether or not Stalin would help, or allow all of China to be overrun by Japan? |
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Dolphinstriker |
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Posts: 1591 (20-Nov-2007 06:24:40) |
Except that with Japan focusing her strength on China alone, victory will not come for the KMT. Rather, the KMT will be eventually defeat in the East. I suspect that the KMT will be betrayed by the Communists when they try to retreat to the West. From there, the communists would sieze power, question is whether or not Stalin would help, or allow all of China to be overrun by Japan?Japan had been "focusing it's strength on China alone" for four and a half years, and was no closer to success than when she started, so neither can it be said that Japan would inevitably win. In fact, the IJA had concluded that they could not win, and should cut their losses, when the outbreak of the European war gave them renewed hope. That hope took the form of a plan to cut China off from western military aid by seizing northern Indochina (from a just defeated France). It was this plan that set Japan and the US on a collision course and led to Pearl Harbor. The Chinese communists were in no position to either "betray the KMT" or "seize power". Japan was willing to negotiate some sort of a compromise with the KMT, but under no circumstances would they countenance communists in control of the Chinese government. Neither would Stalin stand idly by and allow the Japanese to gain control of most of China. The only real question in that regard was would he patch up his differences with Mao, or would he prefer to see the KMT in power? The answer would likely rest on which side he decided would be easier for him to eventually control. |
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Dave Bender |
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Posts: 5517 (20-Nov-2007 15:24:21) |
Dolphinstriker wrote:??? Japan acquired Korea and Formosa from China in 1895. The European nations meddled in this treaty, causing much resentment in Japan. Japan seized northern Manchuria from Russia in 1905. Japan seized Tsingtao from Germany in 1914. (Japan evacuates Tsingtao in 1922 because of American diplomatic pressure.) Japan began a series of special operations against the independent nation of southern Manchuria in December 1927, to generate an excuse to invade. Japanese troops clashed with KMT troops at Tsinan in April - May 1928. Japanese troops attempt to seize control of independent Manchuria in June 1928, but are defeated. Japanese troops invade independent Manchuria in 1931. This time they succeed. Japan gained control of the region around Shaghai in an army size fight 28 Jan - 4 Mar 1932. Japan bought off several warlords in Northern China during 1932 to 1937, giving them effective control of much of northern China. Japan captured Beijing, Tientsin and Nanjing in 1937. Japan captured Canton (opposite Hong Kong) in 1938. Japan captured Hainan Island in February 1939 At this point Japan has effectively won the war. China no longer has a proper means of outside support. And Japan has control of the economically most important parts of China. So what "four and a half year" period are you talking about? |
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Dolphinstriker |
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Posts: 1592 (20-Nov-2007 19:51:08) |
At this point Japan has effectively won the war. China no longer has a proper means of outside support. And Japan has control of the economically most important parts of China.Your idea of winning a war seems rather odd. Between July, 1937, and December, 1941, Japan committed 35 divisions and 38 independent brigades to the fighting in China, representing approximately 80 % of the IJA's strength, as well as significant numbers of IJN units. Yet Japan, in 1941, controlled only the railroads and the territory in close proximity to the major cities, mostly on the coast. The Chinese war continued for another three and a half years, requiring a total commitment of 3,200,000 million Japanese troops, of which approximately 1,900,000 became casualties. At no time did Japan ever realize a net income from those "economically most important parts of China" which she "controlled"; The war in China continued to represent a massive drain on Japan's economic and military resources until August, 1945. If that's "winning" a war, I hope the United States never wins another one! |
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Dave Bender |
If that's "winning" a war, I hope the US never wins another | ||
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Posts: 5519 (20-Nov-2007 20:57:35) |
You may get your wish. The U.S. military won the 2nd Persian Gulf War in the Spring of 2003. Yet we still have 100,000 or so troops stationed in that
region.
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Dolphinstriker |
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Posts: 1593 (20-Nov-2007 21:24:05) |
Winning the war is a lot easier then winning the peace. Whatever you want to call it, the Japanese weren't even close to winning the Second Sino-Japanese war in 1941. They were just getting in deeper and deeper, and their preoccupation with their problems in China led them into rash policy decisions which culminated in a suicidal conflict with the US. It would have been suicidal whether or not Japan was already embroiled in a war in China. The Imperial Japanese Army, of course, did not realize that, and was largely ignorant of matters which did not appear in an army field manual. Like China, the IJA did not control the Imperial Japanese Navy; in short no entity was entirely in control of the situation in Japan in 1940-41. Wars, won, lost, or drawn, have a way of producing unintended consequences. |
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Ed |
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Posts: 2192 (21-Nov-2007 20:35:14) |
I can't see y so many of you ppl want to fight the war that the out come would be different than it was,
BOBC 59, that's because they just don't believe how bad the Japanese, Italians, or Germans were in the 1930s and 1940s. I, for one, am glad you kicked their ass. Ed |
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