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Feb 15 17 10:54 AM
alecsandros wrote:Everything is consistent when you are deliberately withholding the information that makes it inconsistent.Such as Zuikaku TROM compiled from Japanese sources that mentions damaged aircraft being thrown overboard or damaged a/c requrid to ditch.
...A carrier that could not handle aircraft was of no use in battle except as a target. At 1210 the Shokaku departed northeast at thirty knots, along with two heavy cruisers and two destroyers. After seeing the stricken flattop clear of the immediate area, all except one destroyer turned back. In the meantime the Shokaku strike planes were told to land on the Zuikaku, but not all of them got the word. At 1240 Takagi ordered Hara to "reorganize combat strength, course approximately north," but MO Striking Force could not withdraw any time soon. The Zuikaku remained committed to heading southeast into the wind to recover the strike. Between 1310 and 1410 she landed forty-six aircraft from both carriers [two more landed on Shokaku - see below -AH) but delays in striking aircraft below into the hangar (Japanese carriers did not park planes on their flight decks) forced deck crews to push a dozen shot-up planes over the side. Seven other planes ditched. At 1430 Hara counted just nine carrier bombers and carrier attack planes available for a second strike.... Black Shoe Carrier Admiral
As the survivors of the Japanese strike force returned to Mobile Force, they saw that Shokaku was badly hurt, billowing ominous black smoke from the bow and with its flightdeck buckled. Between 1057 hrs and 1150 furs, the American strike groups had scored three 1000-lb bomb hits on it at the cost of six SBDs, one TBD and four F4Fs shot down or subsequently ditched.At 1230 hrs, unable to recover aircraft, Shokaku directed its aeroplanes to Zuikaku, which was unscathed, having been hidden inside a rain squall when the attack began. But not all aeroplanes got the word. A Type 99 and a Zero-sen ignored wave offs and managed to land aboard Shokaku, despite non-functioning arresting wires.Between 1310 hrs and 1430 hrs, Zuikaku recovered 44 aircraft, including ten of its kanbaku, plus seven more from Shokaku. Eleven damaged aircraft from both carriers ditched. Zuikaku's torpedo leader, Shigekazu Shimazaki, came down near the destroyer Shiratsuyu. One Zuikaku dive-bomber crash-landed on Tagula Island, the crew later being recovered by the seaplane carrier Kamikawa Maru. A Zuikaku CAP Zero-sen came down at Deboyne. The heavy cruiser Furutaka rescued three other Shokaku fighter pilots from the CAP, two Shokaku Type 99 crews and a Type 99 crew from Zuikaku. Later, the repair ship Shoe} Maru rescued another Shokaku divebomber crew, and one more dive-bomber from the carrier apparently ditched too, but the details of the crews' rescue remain unclear.Not knowing how many aeroplanes from both carriers there were to recover, Zuikaku's deck crew aggressively discarded aircraft overboard - some with only minor damage. In all, six Zuikaku and six Shokaku aeroplanes went over the side (three fighters, four bombers and five attack aeroplanes). These included Lt Mifuku s Type 99, shot full of holes, but also Lt Ema's 'EII-235', his trusty mount since Pearl Harbor, which was undamaged apart from a nearly severed left aileron joint...Aichi 99 Kanbaku 'Val' Units: 1937-42 Osamu Tagaya.
Feb 15 17 11:08 AM
Feb 15 17 11:15 AM
alecsandros wrote:Based on what phrases did you drew that conclusion ?
Feb 15 17 11:25 AM
Feb 15 17 12:08 PM
Feb 15 17 12:19 PM
Feb 15 17 7:29 PM
You missed the 4 Heavy crusiers of the convoy's covering force"
I didn't know where exactly to put them. Where were they, historically ? At what distance and what bearing to the convoy ?
"he clearly pointed out an example of a plane being dumped with minor damage"
I would have given him credit if he wouldn't have said "most of the IJN aircraft would have been recovered and repaired ". That is a baseless assumption.
Feb 15 17 7:36 PM
Feb 15 17 8:06 PM
alecsandros wrote:"So I made an assumption based upon the available information"
If "available" means "made up on the fly", yes.
You provided example for 1 (one) a/c with light damage of the ~ 20 aircraft that got thrown overboard or ditched, all of which being noted as "damaged".
You also provided another example for 1 (one) aicraft of those ~ 20 that was completely shot up.
You should look at Midway as well. It's about in the same time frame.
Feb 15 17 8:26 PM
Feb 15 17 8:41 PM
alecsandros wrote:"Neither author states that any of the aircraft were irreparable".
Neither author said they were repairable either.
"it is reasonable to assume that the same proportions applied to damaged aircraft."
Of course, if making stuff up once, why not doing twice ?
Feb 15 17 8:55 PM
Feb 15 17 9:12 PM
Feb 15 17 9:51 PM
alecsandros wrote:"some" is a different thing from "most".
For details of AAA effectiveness during task force vs task force battles, I would recommend "Naval Anti-Aircraft guns and Gunnery" by Norman Friedman, pg 230-234.
DAMAGE INFLICTED ON ENEMYBy Air GroupOne large CV hit with three torpedoes and six 1,000 lb. bombs. (Probable additional hits: 1 torpedo; 3 - 1,000 lb. bombs.)Planes shot down:Confirmed22 VF, Type 00 and 97. 3 VB, believed to be type 99 Navy dive bombers. 1 VT, type 97. 1 VP, four engine patrol plane, type 97.Unconfirmed2 VP; 1 VSB.Enemy planes damaged:20 VF, Type 00 and 97. 1 VS, Type 99, Navy dive bomber.NOTE: There may be some duplication in planes shot down and planes damaged.
DAMAGE INFLICTED ON ENEMY
20 VF, Type 00 and 97. 1 VS, Type 99, Navy dive bomber.
NOTE: There may be some duplication in planes shot down and planes damaged.
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