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Crusty	Confused	Lead	[-]
Posts: 66 (14-Sep-2007 03:40:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	During lunch today, I went on the USN's website to check out the new photos (great for screen saver/backgrounds). Anyway, Im looking at photos of some of the newest AB's and Im, for lack of a better term, dumbfounded. I see the VLS cells fore & aft and the 5" gun...and nothing else. I couldnt even find the torpedo tubes, at least not in the same location as earlier AB's. Please tell me there is more bite to these ships then it appears, or has the USN lost its collective mind? What I see is cells for 90 to 96 weapons in the VLS of various types (depending on load out) and the main gun. Now Im sure there are smaller weapons like 50 cals that are mounted by hand as needed, but is that it? I look at newer ships from other navies and I see VLS or other launcher, a "heavy" gun (4"-5"), a rapid fire medium gun or two (ie 40-57mm), ASMs, CIWS, torpedo tubes, etc... There appears to be plenty of room on the newer ABs for a 57mm Bofors or 75mm OTO between the rear funnel and the VLS. If not a gun at least a 21 cell RAM in this spot. CIWS, maybe on the platform in front of the bridge where the CIWS used to be. If not that, perhaps the same small turret with the 25mm like on the new amphibious ships. It also appears there is room midships for Harpoon. And like I said, are there still torpedo tubes? Am I missing something, or is the USN making a HUGE mistake with these ships in thinking that the main threat (USSR) is gone so they can "de-claw" these ships to save a little money? If that is the case, that looks to be a rather risky assumption. Kind of like building the F4 without a cannon. If this is the case, its almost as bad as what they have done with the OHPs, leaving them virtually defense-less... Last Edited By: Crusty 14-Sep-2007 03:42:36. Edited 1 time.
AegisFC		#1	[-]
Posts: 168 (14-Sep-2007 04:03:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Crusty wrote: I see the VLS cells fore & aft and the 5" gun...and nothing else. I couldnt even find the torpedo tubes, at least not in the same location as earlier AB's. On most of the IIA's they are foward of the hangar, on the IIA's with the garage door for the remote mine hunter thingy they are above the hangar, they are there. Please tell me there is more bite to these ships then it appears, or has the USN lost its collective mind? What I see is cells for 90 to 96 weapons in the VLS of various types (depending on load out) and the main gun. Now Im sure there are smaller weapons like 50 cals that are mounted by hand as needed, but is that it? That is still more than just about anything this side of a Tico or the South Korean "Death Star Burke". When on deployment the Burkes are also fitted with 2 25mm cannons and they do have .50 cals, M-60's (being replaced with SAW's) normally. There appears to be plenty of room on the newer ABs for a 57mm Bofors or 75mm OTO between the rear funnel and the VLS. Their isn't. If not a gun at least a 21 cell RAM in this spot. CIWS, maybe on the platform in front of the bridge where the CIWS used to be. Phalanx is becoming obsolete, it is useful but ESSM is better all the way around and you can pack 4 of them in one VLS tube. If not that, perhaps the same small turret with the 25mm like on the new amphibious ships. They already carry 2 25mm's when deployed and they may get the gyrostabilized mounts in the future. It also appears there is room midships for Harpoon. And like I said, are there still torpedo tubes? Space and weight is resevered for Harpoon but SM-2 in surface mode and the 2 on board helo's are more than enough to deal with most surface threats, especially in the litorials where you don't have the time to plan out a harpoon mission plan. Am I missing something, or is the USN making a HUGE mistake with these ships in thinking that the main threat (USSR) is gone so they can "de-claw" these ships to save a little money? If that is the case, that looks to be a rather risky assumption. Kind of like building the F4 without a cannon. The Burkes are NOT de-clawed, all becuase they are not bristling with individual weapons does not mean they are defenseless, far from it. I'd rather have a Burke than just about anything else on the water right now.
seasick		#2	[-]
Posts: 3989 (14-Sep-2007 05:04:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Flight IIA Burkes are more heavily armed than the earlier ones. They have a 40 round torpedo magazine not included in the flight I and II Burkes. The 40 cells can hold Mk46, and Mk50 torpedos. They also have adapters so that Penguin and Hellfire missiles can be stored. Sweet. The Arleigh Burke class are being fitted with ESSM. IIRC 4 cells for and aft with 1 four pack each, 32 ESSM total. RAM is nice, ESSM is much nicer. Sweet. The anti-surface mode of the SM-2MR Block3B has a nice punch. Hit to Kill. Sweet. Phalanx's run is just about over in the USN. Ships get either RAM or ESSM. Many anti-ship missiles can detect the radar beam from the R2D2 dome and turn out before the bullets can find them. Phalanx Block 1B is probably it in the USN. It will be around for a while, probably out live Goalkeeper because of its strap on utility.
AegisFC		#3	[-]
Posts: 170 (14-Sep-2007 05:31:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	seasick wrote: They have a 40 round torpedo magazine not included in the flight I and II Burkes. The 40 cells can hold Mk46, and Mk50 torpedos. They also have adapters so that Penguin and Hellfire missiles can be stored. Sweet. The Burke doesn't have a torp magazine, however the rest of the I's do, I don't think it holds 40 torpedo's but they do have a magazine.
seasick		#4	[-]
Posts: 3990 (14-Sep-2007 06:22:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Global Security.org Flight IIA: Combat systems include the Aegis Weapons System Mk 7 Mod 11. The aft pair of SPY-1D radar panels are raised seven feet to clear helicopter hangars. The torpedo reload magazine also accommodates Penguin and Hellfire air-to-ground missiles, Stinger infrared surface-to-air missiles, LAU 68 2.75-in rockets, and 25-mm gun and 40-mm grenade ammunition. It is able to carry up to 40 torpedoes for shipboard and helicopter use. DDG-51: 6 Torpedos total in tubes DDG-52 to 78: 6 In tubes, 9 in a magazine for helecoptors DDG-79+: Magazine with 40 cells: Mk46 torpedos, Mk50 torpedos, Hellfire, Penguin, Stinger, LAU-68, 25mm ammo, 40mm gernades
Crusty		#5	[-]
Posts: 67 (14-Sep-2007 14:53:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well...I understand ESSM is an excellent weapon. Fine. I also understand Phalanx not being able to handle the newer ASM's, but is every potential enemy going to have the latest/greatest ASMs? And isnt it still good against some aircraft and small surface vessels? I also understand that SM2 has a secondary AS capability. But it doesnt have the range or payload of the Harpoon. That also equals using part of your AA weapons in the anti-ship role and the AB's primary role is still fleet air protection, yes? Penquin was mentioned, but I read either on this or another board that the SH60 inst fitted for it. If thats the case, are we sure the AB's even carry it? As for there not being room for another gun aft of the funnel, I could be wrong but it "looks" like there is plenty of room, lots of clear deck. I would be willing to say there is almost room for another 5" gun, although thats not what Im suggesting. Ill admit I dont know whats below that area so maybe thats an issue. I admit Im not quite following the torpedo cell. Do you refer to cells in the magazine or launch cells? I looked again last night and I sure cant find any tubes. Did they move them inside the hull like the Spru-cans? Either that or they found a very good way to hide them on deck. I dont know, maybe its just me but I think they (USN) is putting all its eggs in one basket. Just like the old F4s I mentioned. As Im sure your all aware, the original F4s had no gun. Wasnt a need as the idea was all engagements would be at long range and could be handled by missiles. That proved to be a very costly mistake. Are we seeing a repeat with the AB's?
seasick		#6	[-]
Posts: 3991 (14-Sep-2007 17:09:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well...I understand ESSM is an excellent weapon. Fine. I also understand Phalanx not being able to handle the newer ASM's, but is every potential enemy going to have the latest/greatest ASMs? And isnt it still good against some aircraft and small surface vessels? The older SSM won't get close to the Arleigh Bruke class DDG. It will be shot down in the outter defenses by SM-2MR or AIM-120C/D. Phalanx's remaining capabilities are duplicated in other weapons. The stabilized 25mm gun will be more capable against small surface vessels and light aircraft. I also understand that SM2 has a secondary AS capability. But it doesnt have the range or payload of the Harpoon. That also equals using part of your AA weapons in the anti-ship role and the AB's primary role is still fleet air protection, yes? Penquin was mentioned, but I read either on this or another board that the SH60 inst fitted for it. If thats the case, are we sure the AB's even carry it? The SM-2MR has a much faster responce time than the Harpoon, and is much faster and harder to defend against. Small vessels are suceptable to being hit. Harpoon is not out of the picture by any means and can be fitted. SH-60R are fitted for Penguin. I admit Im not quite following the torpedo cell. Do you refer to cells in the magazine or launch cells? I looked again last night and I sure cant find any tubes. Did they move them inside the hull like the Spru-cans? Either that or they found a very good way to hide them on deck. The Torpedo magazine has 40 storage cells, sort of like drawers. Each cell is set up to store a Mk46 or Mk50 torpedo. An adapter can be put in the cell to store a Penguin or Hellfire missile. This magazine provides torpedos for the ships torpedo tubes and embarked helecoptors. The torpedo tubes for the Flight IIA are near the base of the second funnel on the deck. The Phalanx is gone and is replaced with the 25mm stabilized gun and ESSM. Harpoon is not fitted but can be easily, SM-2MR, Penguin, and Hellfire take its place. I think they have the bases covered.
seasick		#7	[-]
Posts: 3992 (14-Sep-2007 17:20:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You can see the tubes in this picture. http://www.howard.navy.mil/images/mainwaves.jpg
Battlewagon		#8	[-]
Posts: 20 (14-Sep-2007 19:30:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Forgive my ignorance, but are you saying they intend to launch a Harpoon out of the torpedo tube if need be, or that the harpoon just can be stored in the torpedo magazine ?
seasick		#9	[-]
Posts: 3993 (14-Sep-2007 19:55:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	No, Space and weight has been reserved for fitting the familiar Mk141 GMLS for the Harpoon missiles (the tube launchers). The Harpoon won't be stored in the torpedo magazine. The 40 slots in the magazine can hold Mk46 and Mk50 torpedos as is. An adapter can be placed into a slot to hold a Penguin SSM, or LAU-68 with rockets, or hellfire missile. The magazine can transfer torpedos to the ship's Mk32 mod15 torpedo tubes, and any of its munitions to the hanger to arm SH-60R helecoptors. Off Topic: Some export customers are making noise for a VLS Harpoon. It would not be very hard to make one, though the USN has little interest. Harpoon has in the past been fired operationally from the Mk141 tube launchers, the Mk13/22 system, MK16 ASROC pepper boxes, and test fired additionally from Mk10 and Mk26 launchers.
Crusty		#10	[-]
Posts: 68 (14-Sep-2007 22:27:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	seasick wrote: The older SSM won't get close to the Arleigh Bruke class DDG. It will be shot down in the outter defenses by SM-2MR or AIM-120C/D. Phalanx's remaining capabilities are duplicated in other weapons. The stabilized 25mm gun will be more capable against small surface vessels and light aircraft. The SM-2MR has a much faster responce time than the Harpoon, and is much faster and harder to defend against. Small vessels are suceptable to being hit. Harpoon is not out of the picture by any means and can be fitted. SH-60R are fitted for Penguin. The Torpedo magazine has 40 storage cells, sort of like drawers. Each cell is set up to store a Mk46 or Mk50 torpedo. An adapter can be put in the cell to store a Penguin or Hellfire missile. This magazine provides torpedos for the ships torpedo tubes and embarked helecoptors. The torpedo tubes for the Flight IIA are near the base of the second funnel on the deck. The Phalanx is gone and is replaced with the 25mm stabilized gun and ESSM. Harpoon is not fitted but can be easily, SM-2MR, Penguin, and Hellfire take its place. I think they have the bases covered. Thanks...You have relived my fears. Well, as far as the Burke's are concerned (lol). From what Ive read, the stabilized 25mm sounds like a good weapon. I do hope they are added during first refits.Any idea how many? Im still confused as to why these were not added during the build. Make about as much sense as buying a new car only to take it back to the dealer to have a stereo put in it. The 57mm Bofors also sounds like a very good weapon. Has any one heard any rumors of this being added to the newer AB's at some point? I would think a 25mm fore and a 57mm aft would add quite a punch. The only other thing Im not understanding is if the space and weight for Harpoon has been reserved, why not just mount them now? Why wait till a conflict develops and you need the ships at sea and not in dock having work done.? Or can these launchers be bolted on in a forward area in little time?

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