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Titanic

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Bob Henneman		#21	[-]
Posts: 1582 Apr 4 12 12:10 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Only two years after the loss of Titanic, the liner Royal Edward, carrying 800 passengers, was faced with the same dilemma: an iceberg directly ahead. The Captain reversed engines and aimed directly at the berg. The ship struck it, suffered only a bet stem and some flooding in the most forward compartment, and went on her way to Canada. The captain, Commander Wotton, said he remembered vividly reading about Murdoch's attempt to avoid the berg and how it ripped open Titanic, so he made the conscious decision to aim directly at the berg and absorb the blow. His ship was a lot smaller and was going a lot slower, but still, you have to wonder if Titanic would not have survived has she done the same.
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angus		#22	[-]
Posts: 259 Apr 4 12 1:18 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If California was as close to Titanic as supposed. How come California never saw Carpathia or her rockets or her picking up the life boats? Why did Carpathia never see California till some thing like 10.30 in the morning? Possibly the fact that International Mechantile Marine owned White Star and also owned Leyland line, the owners of the California might have some bearing on the matter. "Lets blame someone else from another company and his employer will not defend him."
Bob Henneman		#23	[-]
Posts: 1582 Apr 4 12 11:48 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Angus- Your questions show that you are not familiar with the facts. And I am not following your conspiracy theory- why would a company blame an employee of another company they owned? Far from blaming him, most people feel his errors were swept under the rug to try and keep Leyland Line and IMM from further liability. And Leyland Line did not have to defend Lord, as no charges were ever brought against him, and no one even recommended an investigation- he was simply asked to testify at the inquiry as a possible witness, and it was his own constantly changing testimony that cast doubt upon him. He was never investigated, was never charged, and no one ever blamed him for anything, let alone for the disaster- he simply kept putting his foot in his mouth and got trounced in the court of public opinion. Here are the facts: - Officers and crew of the Californian reported seeing a ship that matched Titanic's description both before and after it struck the iceberg. They even called to it on the wireless by name. - Officers and crew of the Titanic reported seeing a ship hove to, very close to them. Fourth Officer Boxhall estimated it was 5 miles away, and tried to reach it by signal light. His distance estimate may have been off on the open sea at night, but the ship was close enough where it could be seen from one of the lifeboats, which tried to row to it. After Titanic sank this ship reportedly sailed away, which matched the behavior of Californian described further below. Captain Lord admitted that his ship was hove to near Titanic, but claimed that what his lookouts saw, and what Titanic saw, was a third mystery ship in between them and not each other. Now it is important to remember two things when considering his claim. Firstly, in 100 years of repeated investigations no one has ever been able to find any ship that could possibly have been close to Titanic, let alone in between it and Californian. Secondly, Captain Lord admitted to being asleep in his cabin following a 17 hour work day, so one really has to wonder what he could possibly have known about the situation. - At 1:15 the second officer of Californian called down to wake his captain and report a vessel close to them firing rockets. He got a groggy response about a company signal and some comment about how they were wrong and it was not Titanic. - The second officer and a crewman from Californian later testified that the ship they sighted firing company rockets was within their line of site, and that they had made comment to each other about how the ship looked "queer" and that "everything was not all right with her." At 2:00 AM they thought the ship was underway and leaving the area. This would indicate that they were in fact looking at Titanic sinking (her lights were getting smaller not from increased distance but from her slipping further underwater), and not some mystery third ship. - At 2:00 the pair tried to wake Captain Lord and tell him they had seen the ship fire at least 8 rockets and then get underway, but Lord only mumbled something about what color the rockets were, and later claimed he did not fully wake and did not remember them talking to him at all. I believe that, and just think he was fast asleep after a long day and the seriousness of the situation just did not register. - At 3:30 AM Californian did indeed see rockets fired to the South. As this was the direction Carpathia was coming from, and Titanic has sunk an hour before, these could only have come from Carpathia. Californian assumed these were more company rockets, maybe from the same ship they had spotted earlier in the night, as with the wireless turned off no one was aware that Titanic had sunk. - At 4:16 Californian reported sighting a large, well lit ship with one funnel and four masts steaming up from the South. This matches the description and time line for Carpathia. - Carpathia reported sighting an unidentified vessel as she approached the wreck site sometime later (Californian was not nearly as well lit up and was harder to spot), but this vessel shortly sailed away. This matches the position, and actions, of Californian, and there were no other ships in the area. - At 5:30 AM Captain Lord returned to the bridge and got Californian underway again. He felt the best route out of the ice field was to head West, thus taking him out of sight of Carpathia. The bridge officer he relieved decided to wake the wireless operator instead of going to bed. the operator turned on his set and found out Titanic has sunk, and told his captain. Captain Lord decided to join the rescue operations, so he continued West until he was clear of the ice field, then turned South, then East, turning North to the wreck site after re-sighting and passing Carpathia at about 6:30. This whole circular route took quite some time, and by then Carpathia had picked up the survivors. California agreed to continue to search the area, so Carpathia sailed away. Californian spent two hours (Lord would later say 3) searching but found only debris and empty lifeboats, so she to sailed away. - When Carpathia and Californian came into close quarters at 8:30, no one on Carpathia knew that Californian had taken a circular route to get there, so they had no idea it was in fact the same ship they had earlier sighted to the North that sailed off to the West. So everyone assumed that Californian had approached from the South and was just getting there for the first time. Captain Lord did nothing to dispel this, and in fact said absolutely nothing to anyone. He simply sailed his ship to Boston, and because Carpathia had picked up all the survivors from the lifeboats, no one thought Californian or her captain & crew knew anything that had any bearing on the situation at all. On April 22, three days into the inquiry, it became known from Titanic survivors that a ship had been close to them but had not answered their distress call. No one knew what ship this was, until two separate crewmen went to two separate newspapers and said the ship was Californian. Lord was interviewed and then called before the board of inquiry. he claimed his ship was 30 miles away, then changed it to 20 miles, then refused to give an exact position claiming it was "a state secret." First he said he was unaware of any rockets, then he said he was aware of rockets but they were clearly a company signal, and fired from a ship other than Titanic, giving rise to the 'mystery third ship' claim. But from Californian's point of view this mystery vessel acted exactly like Titanic, and from Titanic's point of view it acted exactly like Californian. As no one has ever found this mystery ship, and there is a mountain of evidence that there were no other vessels in the area, there is no doubt that Californian and Titanic were within sight of each other. I do not think Captain Lord intentionally ignored the Titanic, and I do not think he was malicious. I just think he was a very tired, overworked man who was sound asleep, and failed to grasp that something was happening. Once the reality sunk in during the days after the sinking, I think he scrambled to try and keep his butt out of a sling. Lord seems to have been a rather odd fellow, ill tempered, anti-social, prone to threatening his crew, and quite unable to admit mistakes, so he changed his story a lot to try and exonerate himself rather than admit he screwed up by not getting out of bed and checking on the situation. On both sides of the Atlantic inquiries found reason to censure the ship for not being aware of the situation unfolding around them, but stopped short of placing blame on the actions of the captain or his crew, feeling they could not point to anything they did wrong other than being clueless. One does have to wonder though: if the bridge officer and watchman felt a ship was in distress nearby, and were unable to reach that ship by signal lamp, why did they not try harder to wake their captain? And if their captain was a jerk they did not want to wake after he blew them off twice, why did they not wake the radio operator instead? This led to one of the biggest changes after Titanic: ships with wireless sets had to keep them on 24 hours a day, so that no ship would again be unaware of an unfolding incident like Californian had been. Captain Lord continued to serve at sea, though no longer on Californian, commanding a vessel until he retired early at age 50 in 1927, for medical reasons. He passed away in 1962, expressing outrage at how he was portrayed in the novel and movie "A Night to Remember," but never once expressing the least bit of sympathy for those lost on Titanic. This lack of sympathy, his actions and interpersonal relationships (or lack there of) over the years, and various comments he made, have led some historians to believe he suffered from mental illness his whole life. Californian was sunk in 1915 by a u-boat, a fate shared by Carpathia in 1918. Last Edited By: Bob Henneman Apr 4 12 6:11 PM. Edited 5 times.
Rmor		#24	[-]
Posts: 247 Apr 4 12 3:30 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Bob Henneman wrote: ... but never once expressing the least bit of sympathy for those lost on Titanic. This lack of sympathy, his actions and interpersonal relationships (or lack there of) over the years, and various comments he made, have led some historians to believe he suffered from mental illness his whole life. The man was a product of his times: can you think of anyone more self-righteous or godlike than your sterotypical Victorian/Edwardian sea captain? At the enquiries, he'll have been thinking "Why are all these people so wrong-headed?"
Viper		#25	[-]
Posts: 4839 Apr 4 12 4:46 PM Supreme Dictator of the Universe Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Bob Henneman wrote: Californian had attempted to contact Titanic twice, once by signal light, which got no response, and again by wireless, which prompted the response "Shut up. Shut up." from the Titanic, who's wireless operator was trying to hear a commercial message from Cape Race. So the Californian's wireless officer turned off his set and went to bed. After midnight, at the change of watch, Californian again tried to contact Titanic by signal light, not knowing she had hit a berg. The watch officer and captain both thought the flares might be a company signal, as the convention for sending out a distress signal was to fire rockets one at a time, in rapid succession. Rockets left a trail of fire, signal flare did not, and they were not fired in rapid succession, so I guess I can see why their meaning was confusing. As a result of the Titanic sinking, international treaties were changed so make firing any kind of flare or rocket a distress call. But it seems like any confusion could have been easily cleared up by waking the wireless operator and turning the set on. Instead repeated efforts were made by the watch officer with the signal lamp only. The Cpatain of the Californian would variously claim that he could not turn on his wireless because the ship was stopped and not making sufficient electrical power, or that the Titanic seems to sail away after firing rockets for no apparent reason, or that nothing seemed amiss to there was no reason to check, or that he had not even been aware of the rockets.The Captain never did get out of bed, and did not seem to recall that a crewman had awakened him briefly and made a report of the rockets. If he was apathetic, incompetent, or just fast asleep and too groggy to grasp the situation, no one can say, but clearly not everything that could have been done was. The Captain of Californian would claim he was 30 miles from Titanic, then later 19.5 miles, though other evidence suggests he was closer that that, more like 10-15 miles. No one is exactly sure though, as no mention of Titanic appears in the ship's official log, and the 'scrap log' used by the watch officer to make notes as the watch progressed, which were then later cleaned up and entered into the official log, somehow went missing and was never found. So it would appear to me that the Captain of the Californian simply did not care enough to check on things, and once he found out Titanic had sunk he tried to cover up his error. Careful studies later determined that if Californian had responded promptly over 300 extra lives could have been saved. IIRC, based on the times given from Titanic officers and survivors for the rockets being fired and the times given by the Californian, the rockets seen by the latter couldn't have been from Titanic. Californian reported seeing rockets after 0100 and everyone on Titanic said the last rocket was fired no later than 0015. In addition, the time on the two ships were not the same, there was a 15 or 20 min difference based on when the two ships had set clocks on their sun lines. Now I'm going to have to figure out where I read all of this and dig it out. Ask not the Elves for advice, for they will tell you both yes and no.
LA Dave.alltheworldsbat...		#26	[-]
Posts: 7 Apr 4 12 7:20 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Bob, thanks for your careful recitation of the Californian facts. I never cease to be amazed at the contortions engaged in by the "Lordites" to try to convince the world that S.S. Californian was not the mystery ship of the night of 14-15 April. (Some of the most crazy can be found on the otherwise excellent encyclopedia titanica website.) This all reminds me so much of the controversy over the death of President Kennedy. Those arguing for a conspiracy bend and twist the reality to try to fit it to their perceived theory. If one simply looks at what happened and applies Occam's razor (simple defeats complex), there is no other assassin than Lee Harvey Oswald. Thus with Californian. Too many people saw the rockets, too many people saw the mystery ship, and the wireless operator was asleep. (In fact, Californian was so close to Titanic that, prior to the collision, when the Californian's operator called up Titanic to chat, the Titanic told him to shut up.) One question; I have read that even in April 1912, the presence of rockets of whatever color indicated that a ship was in distress. Thus, the claim that Californian thought they were "company signals" may not run true. (Of course, why would a ship be firing off "company signals" in mid-Atlantic, in the middle of the night? That question alone indicates how bizarre the "company signals" theory is.)
Bob Henneman		#27	[-]
Posts: 1582 Apr 4 12 7:42 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm afraid there is more than ample evidence to overcome the slight discrepancy in time of the last rockets, especially as not only were the two ships on different local times and their clocks were not in sync, but Californian's officers were going strictly from memory, as the notebook they had kept notes in while on watch mysteriously disappeared once Captain Lord became aware of what had happened, and the ship's official log never made mention of the incident at all. In addition, the officer on watch, Second Officer Stone, who was the man on the bridge who actually made the notes, was NOT asked to testify as to what he wrote in the book, and admitted he was only guessing as to the time he saw the last one. As no one on Californian knew it was the last rocket until 5 or 10 minutes passed and there were no others, I can see where they would not have remembered the exact time. Even if we ignore the fact there at every inquiry and investigation for the last 100 years no one has been able to find any ship that could have been in the area other than Californian and Titanic, the evidence that they were looking at each other is convincing. - the two ships passed within 10 miles of each other. Captain Lord thought it was a small steamer closer than that, but the officer actually on the bridge of Californian said it was very clearly a large liner fitting Titanic;s description. The wireless operator called to it as Titanic, and got an answer. Both he and Titanic survivors say that when Titanic answered she was very, very close, so close that the wireless messages back and forth bleed across the spectrum, blocking out all others. So we can establish that the two ships were very close to each other before the collision. Matching story number one: - When uncovering the lifeboats, Boxhall says he saw a ship about 5-6 miles away. He said he could could see the ship's green navigation light, so he was looking at the starboard side of that ship. It was to the port side of Titanic, so that ship would have been looking at Titanic's red navigation light. It did not answer the signal lamp, so he fired off 5 rockets to try and get its attention. Boxhall and Quartermaster Rowe say it is about 12:45 when they fire the first rocket. - Second Officer Stone of the Californian said he could see a ship had stopped off his starboard side, so it would have seen his green navigation light. He could see the red navigation light of the ship that had stopped, so he was looking at its port side. He said that this ship fired a rocket at about 12:45 or so, followed by 4 more, for a total of 5 white rockets. - So either the two ships were looking at each other, or a third, never identified vessel, that neither ship had previously spotted, sailed in between then, stopped, was facing in the same direction, and fired the same exact number of rockets as Titanic, at the same exact time, all by pure chance and for no apparent reason, and no one on Titanic sees these rockets. Matching story number two: - Boxhall fires two more rockets at the ship he sees showing the green navigation light. He thinks the ship has seen him, as he testifies that the ship was coming about "very, very slowly" and was turning her bows to him as if to come to Titanic. - Apprentice Gibson had joined Stone on the bridge of Californian. They both report that the current is slowly swinging their ship around but they would be still showing a green light to the stopped ship, and that the stopped ship fires two more rockets. They are still seeing the other ship's red navigation light. - Boxhall continues to watch the vessel in his sight, convinced it it turning around. He can see the masthead light, and the green navigation light changing position, and then he can see both the green and the red navigation light, meaning the ship now has its bows pointed directly at him. - Captain Lord and Second officer Stone of Californian both testify (separately) that the current has swung their ship around so that its bow now faced directly at the ship they can see. - So again, either Titanic and Californian are looking at each other, or Titanic sees a mystery third ship that turns in exactly the same manner Californian did, and Californian sees a different, fourth mystery ship that behaves exactly like Titanic, again firing rockets for no apparent reason that Californian sees but Titanic does not. Matching story number three: - Boxhall fires an 8th and final rocket. He reports that the ship he sees slowly turns away, as he can no longer see the green light, only the red one, so he is no longer looking at the bow straight on. He fears the other ship has hit ice also and had to turn away. It is about 1:15 but no one is quite sure of the exact time to the minute. - Stone and Gibson report seeing an eighth rocket being fired by the ship they see. The note that their ship has continued to swing around in the current a full 180 degrees, and that the ship they see is now off their port side, meaning it would only see the Californian's red light. They notice rockets are no longer being fired after the 8th one, and decide to update their captain again and tell him the ship they see has stopped firing rockets. Gibson goes below. They think the time is about 1:30, but do not remember the exact time, and their notes are lost. - So one again, either Titanic and Californian are looking at each other, or the third mystery ship turned exactly the way Californian did, and the fourth mystery ship fires the exact same last rocket Titanic did, but no one on Titanic saw them. Matching story number 4: - at about 2:10 Gibson and Stone think the ship they see is leaving, as it is slowly disappearing and its lights are getting dim. The red navigation light they have been looking at disappears, and the other lights vanish over the next couple minutes, so they assume the ship has sailed away. At about 2:40 they report to their captain for a third time, telling him the ship has sailed away leaving no trace. - Titanic sinks by the bow, making her lights progressively dimmer as she settles. She looses power, breaks in half, and is gone by 2:20. I think these stories line up entirely too well to draw any conclusion other than that Titanic and Californian were looking at each other. Especially when you consider that Boxhall never met Lord, Stone, and Gibson; Boxhall and Lord testified days apart and did not hear each other's testimony; Gibson testified in a written affidavit he wrote while his own ship was still at sea and before the other two testified; and Stone was testifying at a different hearing on the other side of the Atlantic. These four people did not hear each other's testimony and connect the dots; that was left to others who later compared all four stories and found that they were the same. Last Edited By: Bob Henneman Apr 4 12 9:28 PM. Edited 1 times.
Bob Henneman		#28	[-]
Posts: 1582 Apr 4 12 9:51 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	LA Dave wrote: One question; I have read that even in April 1912, the presence of rockets of whatever color indicated that a ship was in distress. Thus, the claim that Californian thought they were "company signals" may not run true. (Of course, why would a ship be firing off "company signals" in mid-Atlantic, in the middle of the night? That question alone indicates how bizarre the "company signals" theory is.) This was source of confusion at the time, at the inquiries, and even now. At the time, the International Maritime Convention was to fire rockets, or flares one after another, or fire a gun repeatedly, from the deck of a ship in distress. Stone and Gibson both identifies the passing ship as Titanic at about 10 miles, as did the radio operator, their sleepy captain overruled them and told them it was NOT Titanic but rather a small tramp steamer rather close, and went to bed. The radio operator bowed out of the debate and went to bed also. Stone and Gibson both thought the rockets were distress signals, though they were somewhat confused that they were fired about once every five minutes, instead of one after another. The consulted their sleepy captain, who told them they were signal flares, either being used for the stopped ship that he insisted was NOT Titanic to warn others that it had stopped in the same ice field they were, or to identify itself to another passing ship of the same line. He then rolled over and went back to sleep, leaving instructions for them to wake him if things changed. I get the impression that he was brushing them off so he would be left alone. When, after a small break, Titanic fired more rockets and appeared to be looking out of sorts, Stone and Gibson again went to their captain, who again brushed them off, mumbling something about company signals and asking if they were white, then going back to sleep, with no recollection of this visit. Stone and Gibson were apparently more concerned with not pissing off their captain so they dropped it. As Titanic's light dimmed, the red navigation light vanished, and then the rest of the lights vanished, they figured the ship had sailed over the horizon and their captain was right after all. They paid him a third visit, saying the ship was gone and there were no more rockets. They both were horrified when they heard the next morning that Titanic had sunk, and the next day (after the search was called off and they were on their way to Boston) wrote out depositions because they figured they were going to be called as witnesses. But their watch notes in the scrap log were gone, and the official log (which the captain creates and signs based on the notes in the scrap log) made absolutely no mention of the incident at all, only picking up the story when the wireless operator reported that Titanic had sunk the night before. At the inquiry the investigators raked Stone over the coals for this: "Now, will you tell me what you had seen? - First of all, I was walking up and down the bridge and I saw one white flash in the sky, immediately above this other steamer. I did not know what it was; I thought it might be a shooting star. What was the nature of the flash? - A white flash. You did not know what it was? - No. How long have you been at sea? - Eight years. You know distress signals? - I know what they are, yes. Was it like a distress signal? - It was just a white flash in the sky; it might have been anything. I know, but what did it suggest to your mind? What did you say to yourself? What did you think it was? - I thought nothing until I brought the ship under observation with the binoculars and saw the others. Then you took up your glasses, apparently, and looked? - Yes. And how many more did you see? - I saw four more then. What were they, rockets? - They had the appearance of white rockets bursting in the sky. Did they come in quick succession? - At intervals of about three or four minutes. Now what did you think they were? - White rockets. What do you think they meant? - I thought that perhaps the ship was in communication with some other ship, or possibly she was signaling to us to tell us she had big icebergs around her. Possibly, what else? - Possibly she was communicating with some other steamer at a greater distance than ourselves. (The Commissioner.) What was she communicating? - I do not know. Is that the way in which steamers communicate with each other? - No, not usually. The Commissioner: Then you cannot have thought that. Just attend to the question. (Mr. Butler Aspinall.) You are an Officer and hold a certificate and have been to sea for eight years? - Yes. You had been keeping this vessel under close observation and saw five rockets go up in fairly quick succession. What did you think at the time they, meant? You applied your mind to the matter, did you not? - Yes. Now, what did you think at the time? - I knew they were signals of some sort. I know; of course - signals of what sort did you think? - I did not know at the time. (The Commissioner.) Now try to be frank? - I am. If you try, you will succeed. What did you think these rockets were going up at intervals of three or four minutes for? - I just took them as white rockets, and informed the Master and left him to judge. [my emphasis] Do you mean to say you did not think for yourself? I thought you told us just now that you did think. - [No Answer.]" In other words, he did not want to argue the point with his captain. And it was not just Stone and Gibson that felt like they had screwed up. The ship's carpenter, James McGregor, upon reading in the paper that an unknown ship had been close to Titanic but failed to respond to the distress calls, went running to the paper and said that the ship was the Californian (which everyone thought was no where near the area that night had only arrived on the scene after Carpathia had completed the rescue) and that he had seen her rockets himself. The second engineer, Ernest Gill, separately and in another city, read the same report, had a similar "Ah ha!" moment, and went to a different newspaper making the same confession. Neither of them knew at the time that the ship they were looking at was Titanic, and neither of them knew the ship they saw that night had sunk rather than sailed off, and neither of them was privy to the activity or conversations on the bridge of Californian, but they connected the dots after the fact. So clearly the captain, officers, and crew of Californian screwed the pooch that night, failing to recognize what was happening, and thus failing to respond properly. Nothing intentional, and they certainly had nothing to do with causing the tragedy, but the you would expect more situational awareness from the captain and crew of even a lowly little tramp steamer like Californian. But rather than admit this, Captain Lord forever cast himself as a villain by changing his story multiple times. He failed to disclose that his ship was in the area of Titanic and that it has seen rockets that night when he brought his ship to port. He let people believe his ship was nowhere near the area, having only arrived at 8:30 the next morning after sailing at full speed to get there, but then later said he had sighted Carpathia about 6:30. He then admitted he was stopped for the night not far from there, but said it was first 30 miles away, then 20, then claimed he could not disclose his ship's position because it was a "state secret". He first said Stone was not on the bridge that night, then admitted he was. He first said he saw no rockets and was not aware of any, and called his crew liars when they said they had seen rockets, but later said he had seen rockets and they had been seen by his crew after all, but that they were not distress calls from Titanic, or even distress calls at all. He said he could not have contacted the ship firing rockets because his engines were stopped so the wireless did not work, which made him look pretty silly when he talked about the ship's light being on, so obviously he had electrical power to turn on the wireless if he wanted to. He said he had spent 3 hours searching the area for Titanic survivors, but his own log later showed it was 2 hours. His own log did not even mention the incident at all (kinda comical if you think about it), and the scrap log from the night watch vanished without a trace. He even made some comment in the newspaper about how if any of his crew came forward and said that he had threatened them with a pistol about keeping quiet they were lying, even though up until that point no one had suggested that he had anything to hide or had in any way pressured his crew. So while no one ever accused Captain Lord and his ship of anything, he did a fine job of making himself look like an incompetent asshat of an officer trying to hide something. Last Edited By: Bob Henneman Apr 5 12 6:13 AM. Edited 5 times.
Creeping Death1929		#29	[-]
Posts: 1642 Apr 5 12 3:39 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	That's really interesting information, thanks Bob. If you spend all of your time arguing with people who are nuts, you'll be exhausted and the nuts will still be nuts. -Scott Adams
istobie		#30	[-]
Posts: 2744 Apr 5 12 10:50 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Brilliant thread - I didn't think there was much new to come from the Titanic but I've found this fascinating.
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Throd	5 myths	#31	[-]
Posts: 4324 Apr 5 12 11:38 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17515305
Simon Harley		#32	[-]
Posts: 214 Apr 5 12 9:49 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Rmor wrote: Bob Henneman wrote: ... but never once expressing the least bit of sympathy for those lost on Titanic. This lack of sympathy, his actions and interpersonal relationships (or lack there of) over the years, and various comments he made, have led some historians to believe he suffered from mental illness his whole life. The man was a product of his times: can you think of anyone more self-righteous or godlike than your sterotypical Victorian/Edwardian sea captain? At the enquiries, he'll have been thinking "Why are all these people so wrong-headed?" To quote the Oxford English Dictionary definition of stereotype: "A preconceived and oversimplified idea of the characteristics which typify a person, situation, etc." Given the hundreds if not thousands of British merchant captains in the age of steam pre-1914 I rather doubt that it's possible to draw too many conclusions about behaviour and perception.
Glenn239		#33	[-]
Posts: 1486 Apr 5 12 10:19 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ditto that - thanks Bob. Reading the sorry tale, I can't help but feel that the poor slobs on the bridge of the Californian had to live with their decision for the rest of their lives, while thier defective captain probably never gave it a second thought.
briandpayne		#34	[-]
Posts: 196 Apr 6 12 1:09 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The real hero's if there were any hero's that night. were the captain and crew of the Carpathia.
Fermi2	No	#35	[-]
Posts: 4451 Apr 8 12 5:53 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The real hero was Lightoller who saved countless lives on board the ship and in the water. I have the blue prints to the Titanic. Well copies of them at least!
angus		#36	[-]
Posts: 259 Apr 9 12 5:01 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Bob Henneman wrote: Angus- Your questions show that you are not familiar with the facts. And I am not following your conspiracy theory- why would a company blame an employee of another company they owned? Far from blaming him, most people feel his errors were swept under the rug to try and keep Leyland Line and IMM from further liability. And Leyland Line did not have to defend Lord, as no charges were ever brought against him, and no one even recommended an investigation- he was simply asked to testify at the inquiry as a possible witness, and it was his own constantly changing testimony that cast doubt upon him. He was never investigated, was never charged, and no one ever blamed him for anything, let alone for the disaster- he simply kept putting his foot in his mouth and got trounced in the court of public opinion. Here are the facts: - Officers and crew of the Californian reported seeing a ship that matched Titanic's description both before and after it struck the iceberg. They even called to it on the wireless by name. - Officers and crew of the Titanic reported seeing a ship hove to, very close to them. Fourth Officer Boxhall estimated it was 5 miles away, and tried to reach it by signal light. His distance estimate may have been off on the open sea at night, but the ship was close enough where it could be seen from one of the lifeboats, which tried to row to it. After Titanic sank this ship reportedly sailed away, which matched the behavior of Californian described further below. Captain Lord admitted that his ship was hove to near Titanic, but claimed that what his lookouts saw, and what Titanic saw, was a third mystery ship in between them and not each other. Now it is important to remember two things when considering his claim. Firstly, in 100 years of repeated investigations no one has ever been able to find any ship that could possibly have been close to Titanic, let alone in between it and Californian. Secondly, Captain Lord admitted to being asleep in his cabin following a 17 hour work day, so one really has to wonder what he could possibly have known about the situation. - At 1:15 the second officer of Californian called down to wake his captain and report a vessel close to them firing rockets. He got a groggy response about a company signal and some comment about how they were wrong and it was not Titanic. - The second officer and a crewman from Californian later testified that the ship they sighted firing company rockets was within their line of site, and that they had made comment to each other about how the ship looked "queer" and that "everything was not all right with her." At 2:00 AM they thought the ship was underway and leaving the area. This would indicate that they were in fact looking at Titanic sinking (her lights were getting smaller not from increased distance but from her slipping further underwater), and not some mystery third ship. - At 2:00 the pair tried to wake Captain Lord and tell him they had seen the ship fire at least 8 rockets and then get underway, but Lord only mumbled something about what color the rockets were, and later claimed he did not fully wake and did not remember them talking to him at all. I believe that, and just think he was fast asleep after a long day and the seriousness of the situation just did not register. - At 3:30 AM Californian did indeed see rockets fired to the South. As this was the direction Carpathia was coming from, and Titanic has sunk an hour before, these could only have come from Carpathia. Californian assumed these were more company rockets, maybe from the same ship they had spotted earlier in the night, as with the wireless turned off no one was aware that Titanic had sunk. - At 4:16 Californian reported sighting a large, well lit ship with one funnel and four masts steaming up from the South. This matches the description and time line for Carpathia. - Carpathia reported sighting an unidentified vessel as she approached the wreck site sometime later (Californian was not nearly as well lit up and was harder to spot), but this vessel shortly sailed away. This matches the position, and actions, of Californian, and there were no other ships in the area. - At 5:30 AM Captain Lord returned to the bridge and got Californian underway again. He felt the best route out of the ice field was to head West, thus taking him out of sight of Carpathia. The bridge officer he relieved decided to wake the wireless operator instead of going to bed. the operator turned on his set and found out Titanic has sunk, and told his captain. Captain Lord decided to join the rescue operations, so he continued West until he was clear of the ice field, then turned South, then East, turning North to the wreck site after re-sighting and passing Carpathia at about 6:30. This whole circular route took quite some time, and by then Carpathia had picked up the survivors. California agreed to continue to search the area, so Carpathia sailed away. Californian spent two hours (Lord would later say 3) searching but found only debris and empty lifeboats, so she to sailed away. - When Carpathia and Californian came into close quarters at 8:30, no one on Carpathia knew that Californian had taken a circular route to get there, so they had no idea it was in fact the same ship they had earlier sighted to the North that sailed off to the West. So everyone assumed that Californian had approached from the South and was just getting there for the first time. Captain Lord did nothing to dispel this, and in fact said absolutely nothing to anyone. He simply sailed his ship to Boston, and because Carpathia had picked up all the survivors from the lifeboats, no one thought Californian or her captain & crew knew anything that had any bearing on the situation at all. On April 22, three days into the inquiry, it became known from Titanic survivors that a ship had been close to them but had not answered their distress call. No one knew what ship this was, until two separate crewmen went to two separate newspapers and said the ship was Californian. Lord was interviewed and then called before the board of inquiry. he claimed his ship was 30 miles away, then changed it to 20 miles, then refused to give an exact position claiming it was "a state secret." First he said he was unaware of any rockets, then he said he was aware of rockets but they were clearly a company signal, and fired from a ship other than Titanic, giving rise to the 'mystery third ship' claim. But from Californian's point of view this mystery vessel acted exactly like Titanic, and from Titanic's point of view it acted exactly like Californian. As no one has ever found this mystery ship, and there is a mountain of evidence that there were no other vessels in the area, there is no doubt that Californian and Titanic were within sight of each other. I do not think Captain Lord intentionally ignored the Titanic, and I do not think he was malicious. I just think he was a very tired, overworked man who was sound asleep, and failed to grasp that something was happening. Once the reality sunk in during the days after the sinking, I think he scrambled to try and keep his butt out of a sling. Lord seems to have been a rather odd fellow, ill tempered, anti-social, prone to threatening his crew, and quite unable to admit mistakes, so he changed his story a lot to try and exonerate himself rather than admit he screwed up by not getting out of bed and checking on the situation. On both sides of the Atlantic inquiries found reason to censure the ship for not being aware of the situation unfolding around them, but stopped short of placing blame on the actions of the captain or his crew, feeling they could not point to anything they did wrong other than being clueless. One does have to wonder though: if the bridge officer and watchman felt a ship was in distress nearby, and were unable to reach that ship by signal lamp, why did they not try harder to wake their captain? And if their captain was a jerk they did not want to wake after he blew them off twice, why did they not wake the radio operator instead? This led to one of the biggest changes after Titanic: ships with wireless sets had to keep them on 24 hours a day, so that no ship would again be unaware of an unfolding incident like Californian had been. Captain Lord continued to serve at sea, though no longer on Californian, commanding a vessel until he retired early at age 50 in 1927, for medical reasons. He passed away in 1962, expressing outrage at how he was portrayed in the novel and movie "A Night to Remember," but never once expressing the least bit of sympathy for those lost on Titanic. This lack of sympathy, his actions and interpersonal relationships (or lack there of) over the years, and various comments he made, have led some historians to believe he suffered from mental illness his whole life. Californian was sunk in 1915 by a u-boat, a fate shared by Carpathia in 1918. Bob, I am just as aware of most of the facts as yourself. Though some of the facts don't quite fit what you imply. Californian did try to contact Titanic and was told to keep out. This was around 11.00pm and some 40 minutes before the collision with the iceberg. So at that time, Titanic was at least 14 miles away from Californian plus the distance Californian was from the iceberg. Californian's wireless operator then went to his bed after 16 hours on duty and no attempt was made by Californian to contact the rocket firing ship by wireless. So why if Californian tried to contact the rocket firing ship by signal lamp, did no one on Titanic observe this and reply? It must have been much easier to observe light signals from a darkened, hove to Californian than a brightly lit Titanic. If the mystery ship was seen sailing away. The why does this appear to take place before 5.30am when Californian restarts her engines? Californian has to work herself round an icefield, but Carpathia doesn't seem troubled by one? As far as Lord's cupability and being defended by his shipping line. It would seem better for IMM and White Star to blame the loss of life on Lord, the public at large would not realise that both ships were owned by the same holding company, than Titanic's owners and captain. Much has been bandied about on the TV this weekend about Titanic and Cpt Smith, who is afterall the man with the final resposibility for the loss. He is in charge of Titanic, he made the final decision on the course and speed even if supposedly encouraged by Ismay. He makes a poor job of actually trying to save the ship and evacuating the passengers. Yet there are statues erected to the hero captain! Ismay and the BoT make decisions on the lifeboats carried, but the evacuation of the passengers is so poorly carried out, there would still be loss of life. So lets find a fall guy we can blame where there will be no one there to defend and that man is Cpt Lord who will cetainly not be defended by his employers. Lord had no trouble finding another ship with a different line and sailed her till his retirement. Strange that a shipping line would employ a captain it thought was guilty of such neglect. The public enquiry decided that Titanic did not break in two against all the evidence given to it by observers of the sinking and it took Ballard to prove the survivors correct. That is the state of official conclusions drawn up at the time, "if the evidence does not suit what we want the public to believe, then we adjust it" As for adjusting evidence to suit, one only has to consider the loss of Oceanic, another White Star great piece of navigation and evidence presenting.
HMS Troutbridge	Captain Lord	#37	[-]
Posts: 1877 Apr 12 12 1:29 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Captain Lord was the scapegoat of the London enquiry by the Board of Trade into the loss of the Titanic, to hide the real reason why so many died. Under the rules drawn up by the Board of Trade, the number of boats carried was based off tonnage and not the number of persons on board. It was therefore in the Board of Trade's interests to place as much blame on Captain Lord as possible, rather than explain why they had allowed the largest liner in the world to sail with not enough boats for everyone on board! If sufficient boats had been carried, then what the California did/didn't do would have been irrelevant!
Throd	Sufficient boats	#38	[-]
Posts: 4324 Apr 12 12 7:18 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Only sufficient if they filled them as they should have.
Bob Henneman		#39	[-]
Posts: 1582 Apr 12 12 10:01 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Wow, you could not be more wrong. Lord was not made a scapegoat. Both inquires, plus two appeals filed in the following decades, and a reinvestigation in the 1980s, all found that Californian, and ONLY Californian, was the closest ship to Titanic and that her Captain and crew did not respond properly. Despite this overwhelming evidence that Captain Lord and his ship were within visual distance of the Titanic and clearly saw the rockets, the London inquiry, while disapproving of his actions, did not even recommend that he be investigated for any wrongdoing under the Merchant Shipping Acts; no blame was placed on him; and no criminal charges or civil liability were ever even considered for the missing log pages or the allegations that he might have ignored an SOS call- both criminal offenses. No one made Lord a scapegoat, no one went after him, no one investigated him, no one charged him with anything. His Mater's certificate was not challenged, suspended, or revoked, and he continued to command a vessel for 14 years until his retirement. The only negative implications for him of this entire incident was that the owners of Californian did not like all the continued bad press, so they quietly let him go some months later- but even then a director of the company got him another job commanding a ship for another line, with the same rank and pay. I'd say he got off easy, as there was ample evidence to recommend an investigation that could have resulted in civil liability and criminal charges against him. The main result of the Californian's inaction was that an international treaty was passed saying ships with wireless had to monitor them 24 hours a day. Nor did allegations that the Californian was within visual range and could have assisted with the rescue, that in no way, shape, or form let the Board of Trade off the hook, as no one thought that even if Californian had responded that everyone would have been saved, let alone the ship not sink. As you said, Californian was all irrelivant if there had been sufficient boats, and this was as painfully obvious to everyone then as it is now. Lord was a jerk who failed to do everything he could have and should have to check into what turned out to be a ship in distress. There is evidence he tried to cover his tracks with criminal acts, But he did not intentionally ignore and SOS call. No one ever even tried to hold him accountable for his actions and inactions, and certainly no one ever made him a scapegoat.
angus		#40	[-]
Posts: 259 Apr 12 12 11:58 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Fermi2 wrote: The real hero was Lightoller who saved countless lives on board the ship and in the water. I have the blue prints to the Titanic. Well copies of them at least! Is that the same Lightoller who left the most empty spaces on the lifeboats of which he oversaw the launching?
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