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Apr 8 07 7:40 PM
Apr 8 07 7:47 PM
Apr 8 07 10:01 PM
Quote:Iran is a power that will continue to cause us problems until we deal with them. We have a choice at the moment of dealing with them before they get nuclear weapons, or after they get nuclear weapons. If we wait until they get nuclear weapons then tens of millions will die.
Quote:They will most likely launch their nuclear weapons against Israel which will respond in kind, and then the US and UK and possibly France, China and Russia will also respond, pour encourager les autres.
Quote:I have every reason to believe Ahmadinajad when he says that he wants to murder millions of Jews. With him or one like him in a senior position in Iran and with Iran having nukes and the delivery mechanism for nukes that fantasy will become a reality. If that fantasy does become a reality then Iran will have to be taught a terrible lesson about tossing nukes around. Iran would be destroyed and the vast majority of its people dead in the counterstrike.
Quote:The Iranians have now twice kidnapped members of our armed forces and they have not particularly suffered for it. At the moment there is still a minute chance that the dilemma I outlined above might be avoided. If serious and sustained economic pressure is put on Iran then we might see the end of the Mad Mullahs without any bloodshed. That is the best form of revenge that the UK can take for what has happened to our personnel.
Quote:However we also need to be ready, as I said in my previous post, to seriously maul any Iranian forces who try a stunt like that again. Sometimes the only language which is understood is force and this might be a situation like that. If it does come to another attempted kidnapping we also have to be prepared for the ultimate consequence of seriously mauling any Iranian forces that take part. That consequence is war and we have to be alive to that possibility.
Apr 8 07 10:29 PM
Quote:We also now need to take a very painful revenge upon the Iranians for what they did. Squeezing them until the pips squeak would be a start. We have a lot of pull in financial markets and we need to start using that pull to deny the Iranians money and the facilities to get money.
Apr 8 07 10:41 PM
Apr 8 07 11:33 PM
Apr 9 07 12:12 AM
Quote:Do you want to be invading Iran 10 years from now, after economic sanctions and embargoes have wrecked the country and rendered millions of Iranian's destitute, and all utterly failing to touch the regime which greedily hoovers all the available wealth and material into it's own coffers in order to ensure it's own survival, whilst outside the gates of Tehran it's children die of starvation and malnutrition.
Quote:I don't know about you, but I'm not that much of a heartless bastard. You see, my grievance is with the Iranian politicians. My problem is how to get at them without going through the children and elderly and the hard working father of 3 who works 9 to 5 for 40 years and never hurt anyone.
Quote:But I guess I'm just a soft, wishy washy liberal in an armchair who doesn't know anything about anything. The proof of this must be my reluctance to see my taxes used to kill civilians who would probably agree with me on many topics of international interest, when the real targets are hidden away, always one step ahead of the cruise missile that is always targetted based on amateurish, hasty intelligence.
Apr 9 07 12:53 AM
Quote:In this case, unlike Iraq, why do WE (i.e the external world community) have to deal with them though?. I vocally supported the Iraq intervention on the grounds that the Iraqi's themselves were, by 2003, utterly incapable of removing Hussein themselves and the one time that they got the pluck up to have a crack we, in the vaunted freedom loving west, stood their playing with our willies while the Marsh Arabs et al were slaughtered. We are talking about Iran though now and NOT Iraq.
Quote:There is an odd dichotomy at work here in that some Americans and Brits seem to have the assumption that the Iranians cannot decide their political leadership for themselves and need outside intervention to sweep Ahmedinejad away. They are then stating that the region would be better if it where universally a democratic environment where the people can make their own choices?!. You wonder why more Arabs and Persians arent cheering on the American and British 'forces of light' in the region. Its probably due to the fact we are sending out such a confusing message that they have the first idea of what we actually stand for - save for our own economic interests!
Quote:What? What a fantastic leap of logic that is!. Two leaps in rapid succession in fact - first that Iran will launch first even when Israeli nukes are zeroed in which is not real likely....look at Pakistan/India for any proof needed of the stabilising effect of mutual nuclear weapons ownership. Second that UK, France, China and Russia would ever, at all, cross the nuclear threshold without direct and mortal threat to their own territory
Apr 9 07 1:55 AM
Quote:WE have to deal with them because, like Iraq, internal forces are incapable of dealing with the regime and, like Iraq, Iran is a direct threat to our strategic interests. If anything Iran is a far, far more grave threat.
Quote:You refer to previous regime change in Iran bring the Shah into power. What has to be borne in mind was the different time periods we are talking about. We are talking about during WWII and during the Cold War. During those two conflicts the fundamental threats were Nazi Germany and Communist Russia. All other concerns were subjugated to our over-arching aim (respectively defeating Germany and the USSR) in each conflict. Now our over-arching aim is to defeat radical Islam and all other concerns should be subjugated to that aim.
Quote:Now regimes that we want are anti-Islamist, and there is a nice coincidence that the most anti-Islamist regimes are those which best embody democratic principles. It is rare in international relations that there is a coincidence between principled stands and over-arching aims. Where such coincidences occur the policies which they represent should be pursued vigorously.
Quote:Iran has "democratic" elections but they are as democratic as the Communist dictatorships in central Europe were democratic. The Mad Mullahs control who stands and consequently no one who is opposed to their views and philosophy will gain power in Iran through that route. That means that the Iranians really cannot decide their own political leadership.
Quote:Is it such a fantastic leap? So far we have been lucky in that nations that have acquired nuclear weapons have sobered up once they realise what they have. However there has always been the period between the test and the sobering up when something stupid might have been done. We have also never had a state become nuclear-armed when most of its major leaders are religious fanatics. Ahmadinajad is simply expressing in public what the Mad Mullahs say in private. To rely on a religious fanatic to act in a sober and rational fashion is foolish to say the least.
Quote:After all, they are likely to "reason", if Jews have built a nuclear device it is hardly likely work it it? If there is doubt over the Israeli will or ability to strike back, or the damage that such a strike will do to Iran, then there is every possibility of such a stupid move.
Quote:As for why the other nuclear powers would pile in, basically to prevent something like that every happening again. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible lessons which have in large part prevented nuclear war for the last 62 years. If someone like Iran were stupid enough to launch a nuclear strike then I believe it is entirely possible that to drive the point home the existing nuclear powers would make sure that the country launching that strike is so comprehensively destroyed as to make the entire nation an object lesson.
Apr 9 07 4:29 AM
Quote:I'm happy to draw a line under it.
What say you Jim?
Apr 9 07 10:36 AM
Quote:If you will recall we (UK and US) have already HAD one go at regime change in Iran when we got the Shah installed. That the Iranian populace decided our efforts were not in their best interests and deposed the Shah is hardly suprising when you consider that the Iranian SAVAK secret police operating for the Shah would have recognised most of the methods employed later by Saddam Husseins Mukhabarat!.
Apr 9 07 11:13 AM
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