Capability of Spanish CVBG to defend itself?

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Joshua Kintner	Capability of Spanish CVBG to defend itself?	Lead	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 401 (20-Apr-2008 04:00:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Really this applies to just about any nation that employs VSTOL carriers in it's fleet, but how well would such a modern day fleet, say in the Spanish case, the Principe De Austurias and about 4 FFGs, be able to defend itself against a small raid by bombers and missiles of Russian manufacture (but not necessarily owned and operated by the Russians themselves). Let's take one CVL, and say that it has, roughly 12 AV-8B II Harriers embarked along with six helicopters, along with four FFGs (I don't have my source book avilable at the moment to see what they have). The Bomber raid would consist either of Tu-22 Blinders or Tu-22M2 Backfires, six of them, each one embarking two missiles, with a fighter escort of twelve Su-27 Flankers. What chances does the CVL have of survival, and what losses are the raiders could be expected to take?
bager1968		#1	[-]
Posts: 2898 (20-Apr-2008 07:43:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well, since the Spanish CVBG has at least one F100-class "FFG" (AN/SPY-1D Aegis-equipped, with SM-2MR & ESSM missiles), then I think they would do just fine! Actually, there would might be two there, along with 2 F80 class FFGs. Spain has 4 F100 class "multipurpose frigates" and 6 F80 class FFGs (modified Perry FFG-07 class) in service. http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f100/
Obi Wan Russell		#2	[-]
Posts: 175 (20-Apr-2008 11:48:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Don't forget the Spanish CV also operates three AEW Sea Kings with Searchwater radar, equivalent to the RNs AEW mk2 model (no word on if they have upgraded to anything approaching ASaC 7 standard) so one has to assume they would have one airborne and patrolling 'up threat'. AEW does what it says on the tin, Early Warning of approaching threats for the fleet allows them to come to full readiness and takes away any element of surprise on the part of the attacking force.
wabpilot		#3	[-]
Posts: 2021 (20-Apr-2008 14:10:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Joshua Kintner wrote: Let's take one CVL, and say that it has, roughly 12 AV-8B II Harriers embarked along with six helicopters, along with four FFGs (I don't have my source book avilable at the moment to see what they have). The Bomber raid would consist either of Tu-22 Blinders or Tu-22M2 Backfires, six of them, each one embarking two missiles, with a fighter escort of twelve Su-27 Flankers. What chances does the CVL have of survival, and what losses are the raiders could be expected to take? Very good. In the situation you present, the raid has exactly zero chance of locating the Armada even if it is moored to its pier in Rota. No Bear D, no air raid, at least not with Blinders or Backfires. The Armada has four Alvaro de Bazan class frigates with AEGIS. (These are frigates in name only. In the US we would refer to them as destroyers.) One Alvaro de Bazan can easily handle twelve missiles. The air group would be primarily tasked with protecting the Seaking AEWs from your Flankers. However, without the expensive Bear D, your raid has exactly zero chance of locating the Armada. If you add a Bear D to the raid, the raiders have a chance of locating the Armada. However, once the Bear locates the Armada, the Armada knows where Mr. Bear is. Then, it's a question of physics. Can the AV-8B+s get in firing position fast enough to shoot him down? Even if they do not, the raid's firing solution is degraded by the Bear being run off. Still, your raid has no solution for the Alvaro de Bazan. The only solution is to overwhelm the Alvaro de Bazan with missiles. Twelve just will not do that.
E F Draaijers		#4	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 183 (20-Apr-2008 17:32:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I have to agree with the others, since the stand off capacity of the ex-USSR bombers is neutralized by the anti missile capacity of the modern Western designed warships, with long range capacity in its SM-1 missiles and up to date electronics. Even with the Harriers still on deck, the changes of a hit scored by the TU-22's is very small, since the layered AA capacity can compromise this. (If all missiles fail to hit an incomming ASM, there still are the CIWS, in this case the twelve barreled 20mm Meroka system, which is quite prommising.)
bager1968		#5	[-]
Posts: 2900 (20-Apr-2008 22:42:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Italian Navy (current): In addition to Cavour/Girabaldi as the V/STOL carrier, we add a Horizonte AAW Destroyer (virtually the same as the F100 AEGIS discussed above, but with Aster-30 long-range & Aster-15 short-range anti-missile/aircraft missiles... 2 total), a DURAND DE LA PENNE DDG (SM-1MR & Aspide [NATO-Sea Sparrow-equivalent]... 2 total), and several Aspide-equipped ASW/ASuW frigates (Aster-15-equipped frigates are under construction as well). Australian Navy (in 4-5 years): By the time they have their two LHDs (with the ski-jump, so can operate V/STOL aircraft despite no current plans to acquire them), they will have 3-4 AAW Destroyers (modified Spanish F100), as well as 4 modified FFG-07 with SM-1MR & ESSM, plus 8 ASW/ASuW frigates with ESSM. Indian Navy: Several destroyers & frigates with SA-N-7, SA-N-11, or SA-N-12 missiles, with the three DDGs currently under construction to receive a new long-range SAM, and more frigates with the Israeli Barak SAM. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Surface.html
seasick		#6	[-]
Posts: 4595 (21-Apr-2008 00:20:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Alvaro de Bazan FFG with its SPY-1D and SM-2MR Block IIIA and ESSM missiles should take out the AS-6 or AS-4 from the strike quite well. I might like to add that since the end of the Cold War Russia has scrapped the Maritime Tu-16 bomber fleet, scrapped the AS-6 missile stockpile, and the TU-22M fleet has shrunk and has been transfered to the air force and refit for strike ashore. The greatest threat now is from submarine launched missile attacks, or strikes from strike fighters. The AV-8B+ can intercept strike fighters with direction from the Alvaro de Bazan FFG. I think they would do fine. Nicotine: America's number one mind altering chemical.
xht1sw		#7	[-]
Posts: 48 (21-Apr-2008 08:44:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Just the same, I wouldn't count the Russkies out. IIRC there is an airlaunch version of SS-N-22 Sunburn (Moskit?), and Sunburn is nothing to trifle with.
Admiral Beez		#8	[-]
Posts: 4525 ( 7-May-2008 04:46:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Isn't the entire Russian anti-CVBG force using 1980s era aircraft, tech and missiles? Seems hardly fair to send 1972's Tupolev Tu-22Ms armed with their old Raduga KSR-5 ASM against 2008's Aegis-defended, AEW supported CVBG, not matter how small. Now if you could rustle up two dozen modernized Tupolev Tu-160M variants, armed with a sufficient supply of SS-N-22 Sunburns, along with sufficient decoys, etc, you might stand a chance of hitting something.
Michael Hoddy		#9	[-]
Posts: 185 ( 8-May-2008 16:06:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	From another thread, referring to the purported air-launched Sunburn (Kh-41): Scouse wrote: One thing to correct in this scenario immediately is that there is no Russian Kh-41!. The ASM-MSS or air-launched 3M80E1 never got past the developmental stage and is not a weapon available to Russian Naval Aviation - no matter how popular the photo's of ASM-MSS mockups alongside Su-33's are on the net!.

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Capability of Spanish CVBG to defend itself?

Capability of Spanish CVBG to defend itself?

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