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Tony D |
Two ships deemed ‘unfit’ for combat |
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Posts: 2358 (21-Apr-2008 21:00:05) Da Boss |
USS Stout (DDG 55) and USS Chosin (CG 65) were declared unfit as a result of two independent InSurv inspections.
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AegisFC |
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Posts: 217 (21-Apr-2008 21:40:42) |
I've been wondering how long it would be before news about how bad Stout was to get out. Stout was part of the sea-swap experiment a couple years ago,
where they took Stout, Laboon and Gonzalez and swapped the crews from each ship over to the Gonzo who was deployed. That article said Stout received all of its
maintainance money but I remember a brief where they said they can spend less money on a ship that is not deploying. After the deployment the only crew that
got to go back to their original ship was the Gonzalez, Laboon and Stout ended up doing tours on all three ships. The navy is now paying for that stupid little
experiment, their was no pride in those ships, no sense of ownership, no pride in taking care of your gear, because after all you are either going to a) give
it to someone else in a couple months or b) you just got this gear with lots of problems and no way to make anyone be held accountable.
It saddens me to see my first ship in such bad condition, but it is the navy's fault. |
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tassilo27 |
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Posts: 90 (22-Apr-2008 00:25:41) |
It would be one thing if these ships were elderly and needed far more maintenance than more modern ships, but neither ship is that old (fourteen and seventeen
years old) and a great deal of the errors found were due to corrosion in various places.
Question though. How expensive is it going to be to repair these ships, especially the Chosin? Chosin's in even worse shape, because of the aft SPY-1B failing, both 5" mounts being written off completely, and damage to 26% of the missile tubes. Is it an operation that can be carried out by the ship's company, besides the condemned 5" mounts? Or will those ships have to spend some serious time in a shipyard to get back to fully functional status? |
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xht1sw |
The Elephant in the Room | ||
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Posts: 49 (22-Apr-2008 09:34:19) |
This is not a surprise. It's part of the present culture in the Navy, especially the Surface Forces. There is no integrity there. There are only yes-men
and spin doctors. Maintenance is done to a time standard and a cost standard, not to a quality and safety standard. Ships always leave the shipyards on time,
even if badly needed work is undone or poorly done. Brand new ships leave the yard on time even if they are incomplete or built incorrectly. Need proof?
Look at the USS San Antonio debacle. Look at the USS John F. Kennedy.
The article says that the ships were fully funded for maintenance. The question here is, were they fully funded to the amounts that the Navy was willing to spend, or were they funded to the amount that was actually required for the ships to operate safely and in compliance with the Navy's own regulations? My bet is on the former. Read the Navy Times article and you will see that the first blame goes on the Sailors. They are the easiest people to blame, and there is some culpability on their part. But in the current environment, can you blame them? The current trend of Self-Sufficiency must stop. There were numerous times that I would submit requests to have work done. These were things that, by the Navy's own standards, should have been done at the intermediate or depot level, not by ship's force. These jobs would, more often than not, be returned as "ships force capable", or the IMA or shipyard would show up and do such a half-a$$ed job that the equipment was in no better condition - or worse - than before. Shipyard or IMA personnel would show up with insufficient or wrong tools, materials, or procedures to do their jobs. And who was the people who were held accountable? You guessed it, ship's force. Any time I tried to intervene, my complaints were quashed by Khaki - people who should have known better. There are many jobs that, by all rights, was a ships force capable job. Now, with the current funding restrictions in place, did we have the proper tools or materials to perform the work? Nope! Too expensive, says the khaki. When it came time for PMS checks and so on, we would beg, borrow, steal, or outright lie to give the inspector the illusion that we were following the rules. Any time I tried to throw the BS flag, I was told to keep my mouth shut. No wonder the INSURV inspectors found so many of the wrong parts in place during these inspections. All these issues, and many others, was one of the reasons I chose not to aggressively fight my medical discharge. This is a cultural problem that is endemic to today's politically correct climate and will take years to undo. Here's what needs to happen: 1) The Navy needs to make an honest assesment of what it's material condition is. Like it or not, INSURV is the best vehicle for this. 2) The Navy must ensure that an adequate supply of the correct parts and materials are made available to each ship, not just those that are readying for deployment. 3) Sailors must lose their fear of self-assessment. If a piece of gear is unsat, it is unsat, and needs to be reported as such. 4) The Navy must act on the self-assessments given by its own Sailors. Khaki must lose the mentality that a Sailor who is reporting a deficiency to their equipment is simply trying to waste the Navy's money or get out of doing the work themselves. Khaki, especially those from the "old school", need to understand that an awful lot of Sailor's time is taken up in administrative tasks, often political in nature, that take away the man hours required to perform maintenance and upkeep tasks. 5) The Navy, especially the Surface Forces, need to embrace the same culture of compliance that is found in the submarine and aviation forces. They must find the courage (purportedly a "core value") to hold the shipyards, IMAs, and contractors accountable for the quality and completeness of their work. This is especially true with the new, minimally manned platforms that may be coming online, like the LCS and DDG-1000 classes. Those ships, with the way that they are built and manned, are most assuredly not going to have an organizational maintenance capability like the ones found on today's warships. 6) Bona fide depot-level jobs such as the fire control radars on one of the ships that was 19 years old and had not been overhauled as required at the 15 year mark must be addressed. Those overhauls are done for a reason, and again that reason is not to waste the Navy's money, but to ensure that the equipment works when required. 7) Lastly, High-Level Navy leadership needs to get some serious testicular fortitude when they are asking Congress for money. They must be honest - and forthright - about the amount of funding needed to operate the Navy. The US Navy has a moral and ethical obligation to provide their personnel with a safe and reliable working environment; one that they can feel confident in while they go in harms way. With this news of INSURV, it is plainly obvious that the high-level leadership of the Navy is miserably failing their personnel. XHT1(SW) (still in recovery from the Navy)
Last Edited By: xht1sw
22-Apr-2008 09:39:08.
Edited 1 times.
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Gunnersmate04 |
Agree shipmate | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 115 (22-Apr-2008 15:52:18) |
Is anyone else terribly worried? Your exactly right, the JFK boondoggle was a travesty, the LCS abortion, and the LPD's leaving the yards at less that 70%.
The DDX at spiraling costs, what are they forgoing steel and using platinum?
New ( lesss than 15 years is new in my opinion, the gear hasnt even been run in good yet)being declared "unfit" suprises me, but not much. You can't run the NAVY like a business, too many bean-counters in charge. They tried that crap in Vietnam, letting too many civilians run things. These are WARSHIPs, they need always be ready for WAR! We had 25+ year old DDG's that passed INSURV, not because we cheated, but because we got it right or we didnt leave the ship, period. Same as GITMO, pass or stay. GITMO is no libery port. If its broken or needing fixing, then fix it. Forget the cost. These big beautiful gray ships wont deter an enemy by their appearance. Are we turning into the RED FLEET here? All look and no teeth? Jesus H. Christ this scares the hell out of me...as it should everyone. GUNNER |
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seasick |
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Posts: 4602 (22-Apr-2008 18:40:13) |
This is what happens when there is pressure to hold down cost from above. And the people above are not accountable for the results.
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AegisFC |
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Posts: 218 (22-Apr-2008 19:14:54) |
Nope, it is easier to blame the enlisted. Like I said Sea-Swap hurt Stout bad, all because some khaki thought it would be a great way to save money.
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Gunnersmate04 |
I'd bet a years salary | ||
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Registered Member
Posts: 116 (22-Apr-2008 21:03:02) |
that the "Khaki" had an accounting degree or a bachelors is business management from Dartmouth or Princeton.
The Military isn't a business and shouldn't be run that way, its a must have necessity, and damn the costs. Give the sailors what they need to fix their ships, and the same across the board. And the civilians who want their pet projects too, screw em. Cancel DDX, or replace it with something more practical, same with LCS, get it right or cancel it. I never understood the need for the OSPREY, bu t its here now. JFK was a joke, friggin Admirals forgot they are sailors first, sending the men out on ships that cant even run at half power. Its a miracle more sailors werent killed recently in accidents. GUNNER |
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kell553 |
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Posts: 786 (22-Apr-2008 21:46:13) |
Not entirely unexpected. At the same time "Smart Ship" was cutting crews the maintenance world was being geared to push "routine" work back
onto the (now smaller) crew and only accomplish major items.
Then we went on the Regionalization kick...consolidate all the IMF facilities AND shipyards into one big ticket command. We saw in Hawaii when that happened the first thing the new Regional Maintenance Facility did was to eliminate the hundreds of positions they just aquired from the IMF side of the house (more work with fewer people now...push it back on the ships). Our once grand scheme of overhauls have now been cut to "Depot Modernization Periods" (DMP...otherwise known as 'Damn, More Painting'). A quick little nine month or so mini overhaul...where routine work is pushed onto the ship while the Yard takes care of whatever big ticket stuff was previously agreed to at the Overhaul Conference (meaning any "new work" not previously identified gets pushed onto the ship or gets done by the Yard...at an extensively overinflated price and a built in excuse to be late in delivering the ship). Not to mention DMPs are usually done a shipyards away from the ships usual homeport, but are short enough in duration that families are not moved. Nothing like adding more months of family separation (usually after that last major deployment) to really motivate someone into doing a good job. Add to it shortened Command tours (more up and coming O5s ready for Command than ships needing COs...shorten the length to give everyone a chance). Now a CO has a short time to make his mark hoping to put on the Birds and keep his career going. That means Skippers taking on extra BS underways with the bottom line being "make the commitment" rather than 'Fix the ship'. It also means a fresh and new CO walks on board every few years ready to hit the deck running, regardless of all the enlisted people who are well into their 4th or 5th year on board and are burnt out (and that CO aint gonna transfer his experienced CPO/LPO leaders before the upcoming deployment). Crew Swap was also one of those ideas where Brass thought it was great...saving time and transit costs by just flying crews out. Ignoring the natural inclination that the crew coming back to the stateside ship saw themselves less of a crew and more of a caretaker facility waiting to get back to "their" ship. Not to mention that modern warships were not designed for the robustness of 18 months of strait forward ops in mind. While the ships back home are getting ignored, the one deployed is getting used and abused at a fast pace. And finally we get to the issue of new construction. Looks like the navy has not only gotten away from building ships, but even designing them. now its just a list of requirements and the Private Yards place bids...complete with kewl PowerPoints and artists renditions designed to dazzle the eyes with sleek and elegent vessels rather than telling the Brass you can't fit a Burkes capability into a 200 foot hull AND go 50 knots AND make it to Hawaii without refueling. Never mind after the keel is laid the navy decides to add to the wish list, meaning design changes and rebuilds...more money that could be going to maintaining current ships...resulting in delivery delays and cost over-runs. And a final product less a complete ship and more a mix-mash of after the fact ideas. |
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seasick |
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Posts: 4603 (22-Apr-2008 22:47:26) |
Famous Bean Counter Sayings:
1. Why do we do all this routeen mainance all the time? Nothing ever breaks down. 2. I had to make room in the budget for my bonus. 3. The new accounting method has reduced your productivity you'll have to step it up. 4. I can't find a way to bill that, do somthing else. -------------------- In the end Rumsfeld didn't do any good with transformation, and I don't care if you voted for his boss.
Last Edited By: seasick
22-Apr-2008 22:51:33.
Edited 1 times.
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xht1sw |
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Posts: 50 (23-Apr-2008 04:43:14) |
Damn, kell553, you hit the nail right on the head.
XHT1 |
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