Would they try and get a navalised Typhoon to operate off their smaller carriers- maybe with a catapult? Would they produce a Harrier III themselves? Would they abandon fixed-wing naval aviation? Or would they go to Russia?!
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Alexius55 |
What would Spain and Italy do with no F-35B? |
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Posts: 158 ( 9-Dec-2007 15:13:00) |
Britain's new carriers will be big enough to operate a CATOBAR aircraft if there's no F-35B. France aren't involved anyway. But where does that
leave Europe's other two carrier-operating nations?
Would they try and get a navalised Typhoon to operate off their smaller carriers- maybe with a catapult? Would they produce a Harrier III themselves? Would they abandon fixed-wing naval aviation? Or would they go to Russia?! |
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Argosy23 |
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Posts: 43 ( 9-Dec-2007 16:48:59) |
Well, as for Spain, they are still waiting to see the results of the F-35B program. No definite decision is made about what kind of ship will replace the PdA.
As for Italy... Well, they would find themselves in a bad situation. The "cheapest" option would be STOBAR-ising Cavour, that is somewhow installing an angled deck on it, and operating F-35C. Or joining India somewhere in 2020ish in their ADS. Sadly, I don't see a Harrier III even without F-35B, Spain and Italy couldn't justify the costs for a so small number of aircrafts. But that would probably mean not just the end of Italian/Spain's VSTOL carriers, but it would also leave alot of smaller countries without almost any hope of ever operating a fixed-wing carrier. How 'bout a YAK-141?
Republic of Ragusa -
Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
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Alexius55 |
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Posts: 159 ( 9-Dec-2007 17:27:47) |
Surely the PdA and JCI will be going on for a while. And wouldn't a Typhoon work better STOBAR than an F-35C?
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Argosy23 |
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Posts: 44 ( 9-Dec-2007 17:48:34) |
Well, the PdA replacement is scheduled somewhere in the 2020-2025. Anyway, as it is, the PdA cannot operate F-35B due to the lifts, if I'm not mistaken.
A navalised Typhoon? Why would you gamble with a navalised Typhoon if there are Rafale and F-35C availible and ready? They all offer similar performance and T/W ratios, noting that the Typhoon's would surely drop with adding extra weight.
Republic of Ragusa -
Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
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BenRoethig |
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Posts: 1683 ( 9-Dec-2007 19:11:39) |
Like has been said, Spain is taking a wait and see approach. PdeA still has 15 or so years left in her. Navantia also has a small carrier design in SAC220, so
the Spaniards won't be left out in the cold when it comes time to order a new carrier. The Italians, however, are pretty much up the creek should the F-35B
get the axe. They designed their ship for a plane that didn't yet exist and their options are very limited.
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PK |
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Posts: 666 ( 9-Dec-2007 21:34:23) |
Spain would have another option:
Their Air Force operates FA/18, reportedly updated to C/D standard. They could convert these to the Armada, buy the PA.2 plans from France and have their CTOL naval wing 2014, then select between Rafale, F/A18 E/F or Dave C. |
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MSR |
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Posts: 2595 (11-Dec-2007 02:01:30) |
Talking about a navalised Typhoon is like suggesting a waterproof bath sponge. There will never be such a beast. The Eurofighter has a number of design
features which make even it's basic layout unsuitable for carrier operations, never mind even beginning to address the problems of making it rugged and
strong enough to withstand controlled crashes at 130 knots. By the time you'd redesigned the Eurofighter to be carrier capable, you'd have a completely
new design from the wingtips to the wheels, and for the same money as a brand new design would have cost you, if not a lot more!
If F-35B doesn't happen, Italian fixed wing naval aviation ceases to exist. Probably the same for Spain as well, as it is extremely unlikely that either country is going to acquire one (never mind two) CATOBAR carrier of 30,000 tonnes or more. There just isn't a perceived need for such a massive increase in blue water naval capability and the enormous investment in equipment, training and infrastructure that it would require. Well, that's just my opinion ;-)
The aim of diplomacy is to achieve results, not win arguments
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Alexius55 |
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Posts: 163 (11-Dec-2007 10:31:04) |
MSR: Why did the RN consider a navalised Typhoon then? It's still AFAIK plan B if the F-35 becomes unavailable through lack of technology transfer. Also,
apparently it wouldn't need a catapult- the Typhoon-operating CVF proposal was STOBAR.
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MSR |
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Posts: 2596 (11-Dec-2007 22:53:23) |
RN didn't consider a navalised Typhoon except as part of early feasibility studies when the requirements for CVF were still being defined. The MoD dreamt
it up after smoking too much pot whilst desperately trying to come up with some sort of negotiating tactic to strengthen the UK's bargaining position with
the US over technology transfer for the F-35B.
The first negotiating tactic was Project Replica which demonstrated to the Yanks that the UK could independently develop advanced stealth technology, which helped get the UK into the JSF project as the only Tier One partner instead of Tier Two. Naval Typhoon (otherwise known as Plan B) was just another such effort, although arguably a much less believable one. It came about as a result of the arguments with certain political and industrial groups in the US over how much technology transfer the UK should get. Actually, it's hard to know if the MoD suggested it first, or if BAE suggested it in an unsolicited proposal and the MoD used it. BAE's motivation for suggesting such a thing is purely economic. Strictly speaking, BAE would have no interest in whether or not a naval Typhoon is any good compared to alternative off-the-shelf aircraft so long as they could get someone to give them money for it. Typhoon is the most advanced combat aircraft BAE is building at present. Therefore, it makes business sense to try to expand the market for that aircraft as much as possible, and if the MoD had been stupid enough to pour billions of tax payers money into such a thing, BAE and it's shareholders would have been more than happy to spend the next 10 to 15 years redesigning the Typhoon into a sub-standard, second-rate carrier plane. The only purpose Plan B ever had was to try and con the Yanks into thinking that the UK had a viable alternative to the JSF, which was supposed to make the Yanks less difficult to deal with. We'll probably have to wait several decades for the relevant documents to become declassified before we find out if it worked! P.S. forgot to address STOBAR. That mode of operation has been found, through numerous design studies carried out at the beginning of the CVF project (and validated more than once since then) that STOBAR is inefficient and undesirable, both from the point of view of aircraft design and endurance (an aircraft uses more fuel getting off the deck than does it's CATOBAR equivalent because of the lack of a catapult assist) and most importantly from the point of view of flight deck efficiency. I recommend Richard Beedall's comprehensive website for a more detailed description of the factors that led to this conclusion: http://navy-matters.beedall.com/ See the section on deck layouts under the Carrier Strike menu option.
The aim of diplomacy is to achieve results, not win arguments
Last Edited By: MSR
11-Dec-2007 22:59:37.
Edited 3 times.
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PK |
Naval Typhoon would be a major Challenge | ||
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Posts: 667 (14-Dec-2007 09:02:46) |
As already posted before, there are several concept characteristics of Typhoon that are less than optimal for
use onboard an aircraft carrier, no matter whether STOBAR or CTOL and even if the undercarriage should be strong enough: - the low wing makes it more difficult for ground crew to access fix points below the wing - the air intakes below the fuselage are hazardous for ground crew and prone to inhale debris from the deck - the position of the canards would block pilot's sight for the "controlled crash" used on carriers. Plus some CTOL problem: - the front wheel retracts forward, less than optimal for the stress of catapult launches |
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Zen9 |
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Posts: 3274 (15-Dec-2007 12:22:37) |
Rubbish, nothing is impossible, though it is correct to say that of the RANGE of options for navalisation, the best are the most expensive.
"- the low wing makes it more difficult for ground crew to access fix points below the wing" Whereas the low wing on the F4 and the A4 clearly did not. "- the air intakes below the fuselage are hazardous for ground crew and prone to inhale debris from the deck" Whereas the USN lived with the low intakes on the F8 and A7. "- the position of the canards would block pilot's sight for the "controlled crash" used on carriers. " Debatable and dependant on various factors. "- the front wheel retracts forward, less than optimal for the stress of catapult launches " Less than optimal does not mean it precludes it. Now if you want real reasons for negativity over a navalised Typhoon, look to the wing mountings. |
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