Built around 1936 30+ knots 16" guns
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 NoOneFamous |
Japanese battle cruiser needed |
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Posts: 1157 ( 3-Apr-2008 23:22:52) |
Last Edited By: NoOneFamous 3-Apr-2008 23:27:51.
Edited 1 time.
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P3D |
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Posts: 798 ( 4-Apr-2008 00:33:46) |
Any displacement/size restrictions? IMO just pick one historical design of the 8-8 plan and build them.
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Dave Bender |
30+ knots 16" guns | ||
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Posts: 6382 ( 4-Apr-2008 00:47:40) |
A Japanese Iowa class. You are talking about a very expensive ship. Is this ILO the historical BB Yamato program?
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NoOneFamous |
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Posts: 1158 ( 4-Apr-2008 01:07:49) |
Not in lieu of, but to supplement them.
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borys68 |
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Posts: 2509 ( 4-Apr-2008 05:34:37) |
Ahoj!
Simple - take the Nagato, remove one turret, install 1938 machinery, and you're done. Or rengine and rearm the Hood with 4x2x16" . Borys |
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E F Draaijers |
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Registered Member
Posts: 167 ( 4-Apr-2008 12:35:33) |
It should be an option to reduce the main gun calliber, or it will be too expensive, compared to the equally expensive Yamato Class, already under
construction. perhaps a reuse of the older 14 inch guns of the older dreadnoughts of Fuso and Ise Class can be considered, if these are to be deleted in the
proces. This gives a spare stock of 48 large caliber guns, that are of no other use anymopre, if the older slow battleships are left to rott in their ports.
(as they actually did for most of the war) The Nagato's are excelelnt as they are and need not to be rebuild again, since they are only half a knot slower
then the Yamato's and still Japans second strongest vessels. (These two with the two first batch of Yamato's can form a powerfull battlesquadron.)
Alternatively the old Fuso and Ise Class ships can be rebuild with Italian stile rebuilding, as in the Cavour and Andrea Doria class ships with new lengthened hulls and machinery, and retaining eight guns, deleting the two central turrets for additional enginspace and boilers. The eight spare turrets can be put in two entirely new vessels, if wanted and you have a total of six relatively modern and f ast battlecruisers, with stronger armor than the existing Kongo's. With up to ten fasty 30+ knot heavy ships with a homogeneouas 14inch gun battery, you have some extra playroom for fast interception and additional firepower for the already powerfull Cruiser Sentai's. |
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Dave Bender |
Slow battleships are left to rot in port | ||
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Posts: 6384 ( 4-Apr-2008 13:53:18) |
http://www.combinedfleet.com/senkan.htm
The IJN 14"/45 was a fine weapon when it was designed in 1910. But it is pretty long in the tooth by 1935. So is the 16.1"/45 which was designed in 1914. If Japan is determined to build a new dreadnought in 1935 then I would consider purchasing modern Krupp made 38cm/52 naval rifles. This was the main gun for the Bismarck class dreadnoughts. I think it offers a nice compromise between armor penetration, rate of fire, gun weight and barrel life. The Krupp 40.6cm/52 was also available in 1935 but that requires a large and expensive ship similiar to the American Iowa class. 1935 Germany will sell weapons to Japan so getting approval for the sale should not be a problem. |
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borys68 |
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Posts: 2510 ( 4-Apr-2008 14:48:11) |
Ahoj!
I had this on my HDD. It reuses the guns from Kong/Fuso classes. 28 knots is IMO enough. Changing engine year to 1937 gives you 29 knots. Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1934 Displacement: 30 883 t light; 32 381 t standard; 34 239 t normal; 35 725 t full load Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught 720,00 ft / 720,00 ft x 100,00 ft x 28,50 ft (normal load) 219,46 m / 219,46 m x 30,48 m x 8,69 m Armament: 8 - 14,00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1 500,00lbs / 680,39kg shells, 1934 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring 16 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 62,50lbs / 28,35kg shells, 1934 Model Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring 32 - 1,60" / 40,6 mm guns (4x8 guns), 2,05lbs / 0,93kg shells, 1934 Model Breech loading guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts Weight of broadside 13 066 lbs / 5 926 kg Shells per gun, main battery: 110 Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 18,00 ft / 5,49 m Ends: Unarmoured Main Belt covers 85% of normal length - Torpedo Bulkhead: 2,00" / 51 mm 400,00 ft / 121,92 m 45,00 ft / 13,72 m - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 14,0" / 356 mm 8,00" / 203 mm 12,0" / 305 mm 2nd: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm - Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Direct drive, 4 shafts, 106 634 shp / 79 549 Kw = 28,00 kts Range 8 000nm at 14,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 3 344 tons Complement: 1 258 - 1 636 Cost: £13,622 million / $54,486 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 1 505 tons, 4,4% Armour: 12 519 tons, 36,6% - Belts: 4 177 tons, 12,2% - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 332 tons, 3,9% - Armament: 2 852 tons, 8,3% - Armour Deck: 3 839 tons, 11,2% - Conning Tower: 318 tons, 0,9% Machinery: 3 068 tons, 9,0% Hull, fittings & equipment: 13 392 tons, 39,1% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 356 tons, 9,8% Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,2% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 54 731 lbs / 24 825 Kg = 39,9 x 14,0 " / 356 mm shells or 9,5 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10 Metacentric height 6,0 ft / 1,8 m Roll period: 17,1 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,64 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak Block coefficient: 0,584 Length to Beam Ratio: 7,20 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 26,83 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length): - Stem: 30,00 ft / 9,14 m - Forecastle (20%): 27,00 ft / 8,23 m - Mid (50%): 27,00 ft / 8,23 m (18,52 ft / 5,64 m aft of break) - Quarterdeck (15%): 18,52 ft / 5,64 m - Stern: 18,52 ft / 5,64 m - Average freeboard: 23,00 ft / 7,01 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80,5% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176,2% Waterplane Area: 51 877 Square feet or 4 820 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110% Structure weight / hull surface area: 185 lbs/sq ft or 904 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,96 - Longitudinal: 1,34 - Overall: 1,00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily |
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E F Draaijers |
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Registered Member
Posts: 168 ( 4-Apr-2008 19:22:03) |
I am aware of the IJN Shenkan activities during WW2 and besides the active life of the Kongo's only the Nagato and the two Yamato's were pretty often
deployed, while the tactically less usefull Ise and Fuso classes were mostly left in Japanese homewaters, appart from an occasional trip to Truk lagoon. This
leaves these four still available for conversion to more modern and usefull units, especially in the intended role of fast carrierescort, just like the
Kongo's. Main guns are old, but still more than adequate for the intended role, where most attention would go to AA gunnery, rather than main guns. For
most of these uses the ships simply needed more speed and this could go at the expense of the main artillery, which was already with twelve guns fitted, so
dropping four is not a serious loss at all.
The eight spare turrets could alternatively used in two entirely new ships as well to add to the battlefleet, so only two completely new hulls were needed, which saves quite some money and especially productioncapacity in a Japan which already was in short supply of urgent strategic goods and capacity for its industry. (Alternatively a purchase from either Italy or Germany of weapons can be considered as well, but is highly unlikely, since these too needed the weapons for their own warplans.) So the most simple option was to retain the existing guns already in service and rebuild four old ships and build two new hulls (perhaps instead of the IJN Shinano and the 4th Yamato). No need for additional buildingslips, no new main guns and only a lot of more engines, machinery and small guns needed. As for the Fuso and Ise Class, building out the P and Q turrets will give more space for additional boilers and more powerfull turbine engines. It can also be used to increase the fuelcapacity. Sidearmor can be unaltered and additional horizontal armor can be included, as well as a removal of all secondary guns of 6 inch, increasing the 5inch/40 AA, or 3.9inch/65 number to 16 or more. Possibly remove the entire superstructure and replace it by a more modern one, simmilar to the proposed B-65 design. Displacement will more or less remaon the same as in their last refit period, since the weight of the two turrets with all their barbettes adn magazines will be compensated by the additional weight of new boilers and engines, as well as armor. The two new hulls will most likely resemble the projected B-65 class design, with four twin turrets, instead of three tripples. |
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NoOneFamous |
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Posts: 1163 ( 4-Apr-2008 20:30:39) |
So I guess my best bet is to rebuild some of my older ships. Thanks
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P3D |
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Posts: 799 ( 4-Apr-2008 21:08:46) |
There was Big Dave's "The Rational Emperor" plan. The four 14" BB were rebuilt as battlecruiser - lengthening hull, machinery instead of
amidship turrets, building two extra BCs from the eight turrets available. And Coal firing was kept on but a few ships (the two new BCs for carrier escort) to
reduce dependence on oil. Y&M do not get built.
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