What if Avro Vulcan B.3 & Skybolt?

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miketr	What if Avro Vulcan B.3 & Skybolt?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 2896 ( 4-Apr-2008 19:14:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In 1962 the USA can'd the AGM-48 Skybolt project, an air launched ballistic missile. Lets assume a few things. 1) The Missile was very close to a finished product and basically ready to go. 2) The UK accepts the offer to take over the project, so the UK goes with Skybolt and not Polaris as its nuclear strike weapon. 3) Of course the Avro Bulcan B.3 Mod is put into production; B.3 to be a stretched design with uprated engines, range and payload. Six wing mounted Skybolts, Thirty Eight 1,000 lbs bombs, 5,000 nm range and a max take off weight of 350,000 lbs. What other effects might this choice had meet for the UK? Would the B.3 impacted the Falklands war? Any thoughts on how many B.3 the RAF orders? Michael
emc		#1	[-]
Posts: 3630 ( 4-Apr-2008 19:43:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	miketr wrote: In 1962 the USA can'd the AGM-48 Skybolt project, an air launched ballistic missile. Lets assume a few things. 1) The Missile was very close to a finished product and basically ready to go. 2) The UK accepts the offer to take over the project, so the UK goes with Skybolt and not Polaris as its nuclear strike weapon. 3) Of course the Avro Bulcan B.3 Mod is put into production; B.3 to be a stretched design with uprated engines, range and payload. Six wing mounted Skybolts, Thirty Eight 1,000 lbs bombs, 5,000 nm range and a max take off weight of 350,000 lbs. What other effects might this choice had meet for the UK? Would the B.3 impacted the Falklands war? Any thoughts on how many B.3 the RAF orders? Michael What other effects might this choice had meet[meant] for the UK? I think the most likely impact would be the RN wouldn't get its SSN for several years. Would the B.3 [have] impacted the Falklands war? I suspect that the B.3 itself would have negligible effect on the Falklands War; the UK isn't going to nuke Goose Green, nor is it going to nuke mainland Argentina; its effects the Falklands War is very dependent on what sacrifices the British Armed Forces had to make to afford the B.3 -- I think it's unlikely for the total UK defense budget to increase, so something else would be lost --. Maybe no RN SSN (I consider this most likely), or no RN amphibious ships, or the Royal Marines don't get trained and equipped for operating in northern Norway. These possibilities would make the recovery of the Falklands more difficult. Any thoughts on how many B.3 the RAF orders? How many aircraft the RAF orders depends heavily on how much the aircraft costs; considering that one SSBN is roughly equivalent in deterrent capability to a bomber squadron, the RAF would need to order about 50 to be the equivalent of the RN's SSBN fleet. Last Edited By: emc 5-Apr-2008 00:43:39. Edited 1 times.
Alexius55		#2	[-]
Posts: 253 ( 4-Apr-2008 21:35:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	B.3's range would make Black Buck a lot easier, and perhaps allow frequent bombing of the Falklands. However, the budget effects might make the war more difficult. No RN SSN would require the RN to actually give up the capability, as HMS Dreadnought was in service in 1960, and Valiant was under construction. Possibly instead an impact on amphibious forces or on the Tornado or Harrier. Again, SSNs would not be delayed, although the SSBNs might never be built. One interesting idea is what the replacement would be in the early 1990s. Skybolt doesn't need a supersonic/stealthy platform, so possibly something looking more like an airliner- maybe even a Nimrod bomber? Or would we see new/updated Vulcans, the UK buying American (B-1?) or something completely different? Would the French be involved? Would it be influenced by Concorde?
miketr		#3	[-]
Posts: 2897 ( 4-Apr-2008 22:38:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Anyone have any info on what the Vulcan B.2 cost and the UK Polaris program? From what I have read the B.3 were approved and Polaris was a scamble, "what do we do now?" replacement. I am driving at is would the B.3 have cost less than the SSBN program? Michael
Obi Wan Russell		#4	[-]
Posts: 154 ( 5-Apr-2008 14:55:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The RNs SSN programme was already well under way by 1962, and would most likely have continued unaffected. The SSBNs however were an alternative to the Skybolt/B3 programme so they would never have happened,- that is the major change in the budget requirements. Also without the SSBN programme the RN would have had a better argument for keeping it's Carrier force, as a lot of those involved in the mid 60s defence review have stated that the RN could either have the SSBNs or the carriers, not both, and the descision was not in the RNs hands anyway. The B.3 may be better suited to the Black Buck missions than the B.2s used due to it's longer range, but is still limited to dropping unguided bombs in the dark. The historical Black Buck missions dropped 63 1000lb bombs on the Falklands during three missions (the other two only carried Shrike missiles), out of which only ONE hit the runway and the crater was filled in within a few hours. Supply flights to Stanley airport by the AAF were not interrupted. Unless you are going to suggest a guided weapon system for the B.3s they will make no difference to the outcome of the war.
Alexius55		#5	[-]
Posts: 256 ( 5-Apr-2008 23:20:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A guided weapon system for the B.3's might make sense. After all, the B.2's did not get them because there was little point in fitting them to an aircraft that would be out of service within a few years anyway, and wasn't expected to have to use them. So Paveway II would be integrated with the B.3 as well as Harriers, Tornados, Jaguars and (IIRC) Phantoms & Buccaneers.
miketr		#6	[-]
Posts: 2899 ( 6-Apr-2008 15:43:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A crazy engine question... The B.2 were first equipped with the Bristol Siddeley Olympus 201 and some were later fitted with the larger and more powerfull Bristol Siddeley Olympus 301. There were a number of later developments of this engine. Olympus 320 that supported afterburning, 30,000 lbs on afterburning Rolls Royce Olympus 593 that also supprted afterburning, 32,000 lbs and 38,000 lbs with afterburning. Does anyone know if the Vulcans basic design was capble of sustained speeds over mach 1? Second anyone have any information on the sizes the various engines? I am wondering how hard it would be to fit the 320 or even the 593. My assumption is that it would not be possible but still wonder. Michael
emc		#7	[-]
Posts: 3635 ( 9-Jul-1983 21:07:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	miketr wrote: A crazy engine question... The B.2 were first equipped with the Bristol Siddeley Olympus 201 and some were later fitted with the larger and more powerfull Bristol Siddeley Olympus 301. There were a number of later developments of this engine. Olympus 320 that supported afterburning, 30,000 lbs on afterburning Rolls Royce Olympus 593 that also supprted afterburning, 32,000 lbs and 38,000 lbs with afterburning. Does anyone know if the Vulcans basic design was capble of sustained speeds over mach 1? Second anyone have any information on the sizes the various engines? I am wondering how hard it would be to fit the 320 or even the 593. My assumption is that it would not be possible but still wonder. Michael My first guess (just based on my aero experience and the general configuration of the Vulcan) is "no." The Vulcan's wing is too thick, and its general fineness ratio is too low (length/square root of cross sectional area) and it is almost certainly not area-ruled in any manner. Of course, I'd need a fairly high fidelity set of drawings and a good CFD program to be sure.
miketr		#8	[-]
Posts: 2900 ( 6-Apr-2008 16:42:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	emc wrote: My first guess (just based on my aero experience and the general configuration of the Vulcan) is "no." The Vulcan's wing is too thick, and its general fineness ratio is too low (length/square root of cross sectional area) and it is almost certainly not area-ruled in any manner. Of course, I'd need a fairly high fidelity set of drawings and a good CFD program to be sure. Thank you for that answer, it makes a great deal of sense. I had not heard of the "area rule" but a quick look online explains its issues and the date of the Vulcan's first design makes it very unlikely. Clearly a total new design would be needed to make use of the morepower engines. Michael
Red Admiral		#9	[-]
Posts: 1847 ( 6-Apr-2008 17:47:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	There was a supersonic Vulcan project (along with supersonic Victor and Valiant) but sadly no drawings of the Vulcan project seem to exist. Phase 6 which was the integration of the Mk.2 with Skybolt was to use reheated Olympus 21s or 21/2s. Another option looked at modifying the outer wing to be 5% thickness which increased the critical Mach to around 0.89. Supersonic Victor looks like this.
emc		#10	[-]
Posts: 3637 ( 6-Apr-2008 17:55:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Red Admiral, I get a 403 error (access forbidden) from the link you posted. iirc, the Victor did demonstrate supersonic speeds in a dive. Of course, this could be abnormal enough to be cause for major maintenance. (about 25 years ago, a 727 had an autopilot failure, which resulted in it exceeding M=1 in a dive, after which the aircraft had to be scrapped because the pilot had to overstress it in the pullout, and P&W made the airline send the engines back to be torn down)

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What if Avro Vulcan B.3 & Skybolt?

What if Avro Vulcan B.3 & Skybolt?

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