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Hawker P.1052 in Korean War

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Admiral Beez	Hawker P.1052 in Korean War	Lead	[-]
Posts: 4422 (13-Mar-2008 01:49:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Had the swept wing Hawker P.1052 made it into production (initial flight in 1948), and deployed with the FAA in Korea, and perhaps with other Commonwealth airforces, how would it have compared against the MiG-15 and F-86?
caioduilio		#1	[-]
Posts: 71 (25-Mar-2008 00:35:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Since P1052 retained Sea Hawk tail, AFAIK the improvement in performance over the straight wing half-brother was limited. I imagine that it would have been in serious difficulties vs Mig15s. P1081 could have been better and probably in the same league as Mig15 and Sabre. But probably, even with right decision made by Admiralty, it would have been ready a bit too late for operations over Korea. So P1081 could have been contemporary to MIG17. That probably was a better figther. Last Edited By: caioduilio 25-Mar-2008 00:43:52. Edited 2 times.
Admiral Beez		#2	[-]
Posts: 4441 (25-Mar-2008 18:45:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	caioduilio wrote: So P1081 could have been contemporary to MIG17. That probably was a better figther. Did the British have anything that could match the MiG-17 until the introduction of the Hawker Hunter, introduced nearly four years after the MiG-17? By it's 1956 introduction, the Hunter will be facing the supersonic MiG-19 (introduced 1955), and soon the MiG-21.
caioduilio		#3	[-]
Posts: 72 (25-Mar-2008 22:48:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Admiral Beez wrote: Did the British have anything that could match the MiG-17 until the introduction of the Hawker Hunter, introduced nearly four years after the MiG-17? By it's 1956 introduction, the Hunter will be facing the supersonic MiG-19 (introduced 1955), and soon the MiG-21. The problem was that no P1081 was bought and only british built fighters fielded by RAF and RAF in MIG17 age were Meteor (!), Venom or Sea Hawk... IMHO, with a better decision making by british top brass and politicians RAF and FAA could have had british fighters only a couple of years after the soviet and US counterparts through all the 50s. This was more or less achieved, with less money spent, I believe, by the french air force with Mystere IV, followed by Super Mystere B2 and at last by Mirage III.
PMN1		#4	[-]
Posts: 3401 (25-Mar-2008 23:18:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I've posted this scenario form Project Cancelled before but it seems a good time to repost Scenario 1952 How does the scene look with a P.1081 type given top priority by the RAF and the Fleet Air Arm? The time is summer 1952. The RAF has three squadrons of P.1081s in service and the Royal Navy one, with a further unit forming. Naval jet experience has been gained with three squadrons of Sea Vampires and the straight wing, tail wheel undercarriage Sea Attacker has been abandoned. An RAF Squadron is operating alongside F-86's in the Korean War and the naval squadron is preparing to embark on HMS Eagle for service in Korean waters. The P.1081 proves itself a match for the Mig15 in dog fighting over the Yalu River and with rockets and bombs does useful work in the ground attack role. The Fleet Air Arm cross-operates with US Navy carriers and for a period flies from the land base alongside the RAF. The results are far-reaching. There is a massive inflow into the Air Ministry of up-to-date data and many young pilots are rotated through the Koran squadron to gain combat experience. Eight RAF squadrons in Britain and Germany are equipped with P.1081s and the type forms the spearhead of Fighter Command until the full advent of the Hunter in 1955-56. The vital decision is to re-equip the Royal Auxiliary Air Force squadrons with P.1081s and, for export, Government finance is made available for the P.1081 to be re-engined with the up-rated Rolls Royce Tay engine with afterburner. Impressed with the P.1081's performance, the first nation to order the type is Australia. Thereafter a total of 250 are sold abroad. The P1081's successor, the Hunter, is chosen as the basis for long-term development. After the introduction of the Avon Hunter into RAF service, a prototype of the P.1083 variant, with 50-degree sweep and fully variable afterburning, is flown in the autumn of 1953. It is ordered into production. The P.1083 Hunter enters service in late 1956, and the RAF has its first genuine supersonic aircraft at the same time that the US Air Force introduces the Convair F-102 delta. The P.1083 proves capable of 800mph at sea level and around 780mph at 36,000ft. Export sales boom and a further development is ordered, with a twp per cent thinner wing and equipped with either air-to-air missiles or ground attack weapons. Production of single or two-seat Hunters continues into the 1970's, mainly for export.
bager1968		#5	[-]
Posts: 2870 (26-Mar-2008 20:47:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Not bad, PMN1... except that Australia would be part of the initial production... as the conversion of the the second P.1052 prototype into the sole P.1081 was to fill an Australian request, with the sole P.1081 being known within Hawker as "the Australian fighter". Note that the P.1081 was allocated model A86 in the Australian aircraft designation system. Hawker P.1052 The Hawker P.1052 was similar to the Hawker P.1040 (Hawker Sea Hawk) in most aspects, with the main difference being the wings were swept back at an angle of 35 degrees. The tailplane was cropped to a shorter span. The first prototype (VX272, see photo) flew on 19 November 1948, and the second prototype (VX279) flew six month later on 13 April 1949. The P.1052 became the basis for the design of a swept wing rocket experimental aircraft under the design code P.1078, but because work on the unswept P 1040 based Hawker P.1072 was more advanced, no P.1078 was built. The second prototype P.1052 was rebuilt as the Hawker P.1081 with a single jet outlet and swept empennage, also known at Hawker's as the "Australian Fighter". It was later destroyed, killing the test pilot, T. S. Wade. No other aircraft were built as work had been transferred to the P.1067 (Hawker Hunter). The P 1052 was part of the transition from the straight-winged, centrifugally powered Sea Hawk to the axially powered, swept-wing Hunter. The first prototype, fitted with arrester gear etc. added useful experience in operating swept wing jets on carriers. The first prototype is preserved at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, Yeovilton. Specifications (P.1052) General characteristics · Crew: 1 · Length: 39 ft 7 in (12.07 m) · Wingspan: 31 ft 6 in (9.6 m) · Height: 10 ft 1 in (3.07 m) · Wing area: 258 ft2 (23.97 m2) · Empty weight: 9,450 lb (4,286 kg) · Loaded weight: 13,488 lb (6,118 kg) · Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce Nene R.N.2 turbojet exhausting through wing root pipes, 5,000 lb (22.2 kN) Performance · Maximum speed: 593 knots (682.5 mph, 1,098 kmh) · Service ceiling: 45,500 ft (13,870 m) A86 Hawker P.1081 The Hawker P.1081, also known as the "Australian Fighter" was a British jet aircraft from the mid-twentieth century. The British aircraft company, Hawker Aircraft submitted a proposal to meet a specification put out by the Australian government. It was for a swept-wing and tail fighter using a Rolls-Royce Tay engine. Work was started to modify the second prototype of the Hawker P.1052 (VX279). The existing Rolls-Royce Nene engine was used for the prototype aircraft. The rear fuselage of the P.1052 was completely replaced with one having a straight-through jet pipe & swept tail surfaces. The first flight of the P.1081 took place on 19 June 1950, but in November of that year, the Australian project was discontinued. The aircraft was handed over to the Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE). Its swept tail increased the Mach number above that of the P.1052 into the Mach 0.9-0.95 region, providing valuable information for the axially powered Hunter. The sole P.1081 was lost with its pilot Squadron Leader T. S. "Wimpy" Wade on 3 April 1951. Specifications General characteristics · Crew: one · Length: 37 ft 4 in (11.38 m) · Wingspan: 31 ft 6 in (9.6 m) · Height: 10 ft 10 in (3.30 m) · Wing area: 258 ft2 (23.97 m2) · Empty weight: 11,200 lb (5,080 kg) · Loaded weight: 14,480 lb (6,570 kg) · Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce Nene RN2 turbojet exhausting through tailpipe, 5,000 lbf (22.2 kN) Performance · Maximum speed: 604 knots (1,119 km/h) · Service ceiling: 45,600 ft (13,900 m) Developed as a result of Australian interest in an operational fighter version of the P.1052 swept-wing research aircraft, the P.1081 was a rebuild of the second P.1052 incorporating a straight-through (as opposed to bifurcated) jet pipe and a new all-swept tail. Non-availability of the Rolls-Royce Tay turbojet proposed for installation resulted in retention of the original 2268kg Nene R.N.2. With this power plant, the P.1081 was flown on 19 June 1950. Consideration was given to building a second, fully representative prototype with a four 20mm cannon armament and an afterburning Tay engine, but, on 14 November 1950, further work on the Australian project was cancelled. The sole P.1081 was subsequently transferred to the RAE, but was destroyed in an accident on 3 April 1951. RR Tay (Pratt & Whitney J48-P) -6 - 6,250 (7,000w) flew 12/49 -3 - 6,250 [8,000r] flew before 9/50 -5 - 6,350 [8,750r] flew 7/51 -8 - 7,250 flew early 52 -8A - 7,250 (8,500w) flew 1/54 Last Edited By: bager1968 26-Mar-2008 20:53:14. Edited 1 times.

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