UUV - USVs

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (drunknsubmrnr) — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:55:15 GMT

"What I can't get my head around is that an SSK has limited performance compared to a nuke but SSKs are still used; and UUVs have limited performance compared to a SSK but you say they are no good. Why can't they be regarded in the same way as SSK vs SSN: useful and better than nothing. "

SSK's aren't really all that good at ASW compared to an SSN. They just don't have the power density to run the sensors required for ASW. That can change a bit in a...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (Colin Mc) — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:45:27 GMT

Kev,

Thanks. What I can't get my head around is that an SSK has limited performance compared to a nuke but SSKs are still used; and UUVs have limited performance compared to a SSK but you say they are no good. Why can't they be regarded in the same way as SSK vs SSN: useful and better than nothing.
The other thing I have a problem with is that clearly HF sonar is the best for the job but range is low so it needs working at. HF sonar is deployed by helicopter but...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (drunknsubmrnr) — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:21:07 GMT

"I am still not sure if I understand your position on AIP. What is it that makes an AIP boat more vulnerable? "

It's not that they're more vulnerable so much as that they aren't significantly less vulnerable but they cost a lot more. Under certain situations and with certain AIP equipment they make a lot more "submarine-like" sounds than an SSK, which makes it a lot easier to classify them. On average though, they're about the same as an SSK....

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (Colin Mc) — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 10:47:11 GMT

Kev
Thanks for the answers. Of course what you have said prompts more questions and comments.

1. I am still not sure if I understand your position on AIP. What is it that makes an AIP boat more vulnerable?

2. I always thought that 2087 was being deployed to get at SSKs in deep water because passive methods were proving ineffective. LF gave you a good chance of detecting the presence of a hostile SSK at long range although not precisely. This then allowed you to deploy...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (drunknsubmrnr) — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:43:47 GMT

AIP is meant to allow a trickle charge without raising a mast. That may or may not actually be "stealthy".

Passive isn't terribly good against SSK's unless they're pretty close.

Generally you'd use old LWT's against UUV's. They're small so you can carry a lot of them.

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:57:13 GMT

I'm not sure we can speak of a swarm with a USV of the type talked about here.

However it occures to me the mini-sosus idea has a potential offshoot.

Pebbles. A concept that is already out there in some circles. Devices small and compact that dymanicaly network together. Simple sensors, simple processors, simple communications, each device is not much to speak of, but in numbers becomes something quite potent, at least in theory.

Question. How long do we want...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (Colin Mc) — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:40:17 GMT

Scouse/Kev,

Could you lighten my darkness?

1. Kev, you said way back in the other thread that a SSK charging batteries sounds like a trawler but an AIP has a distinctive sound. That seems strange because the whole point of AIP is to extend endurance in a stealthy way. Are you able to shed some light, please?
2. Scouse, I assume the Falklands experience was that the bow mounted MF sonar was pretty useless close to littorals and only the HF dipping sonar of the...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (drunknsubmrnr) — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:43:59 GMT

"We've been lucky here having the opfor involved in the reparte in the form of Kev!. He has obliquely confirmed that the higher frequencies, in active search, offer the best chances for detection of a discrete SSK contact in the shallows. Anecdotally our Falklands experience with the HAS.2/5 and their 195 dipping gear predicted that a long way back!."

Glad to be of service

HF is the...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 00:35:03 GMT

Hmmmm....it occures to me we may not even be thinking about this right in terms of sensors. Need to sleep on that and ponder this lot.

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (StevoJH) — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:24:39 GMT

Scouse wrote:

They did agree with it once - that was how we ended up with the Invincible class - big grey ASW boats by any other name!. Obviously not going to work a second time and, in truth, there probably arent enough Merlins anyway - not that I'd support C1 being a CVS...its plainly ridiculous. A DDH when we already have a big and competent escort hull, in the shape of Daring, to derive one from is another matter...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (Scouse) — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:13:26 GMT

Ok, these are more questions then anything else, but i'm a curious person so i'll ask your opinion.

1) How much can a Merlin Carry?

According to Augusta Westland the MTOW for Merlin should be 15600kg. Empty weight for HM1 is 9080kg. Maximum fuel onload is 4160l which would weigh in at approx 3000kg's so the question is how far do you want to carry a load?. With full fuel and tubby aircrew your probably looking at about 3000kgs left. If you reduce...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (StevoJH) — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:20:12 GMT

Wow, you've put some thought into it scouse.

Ok, these are more questions then anything else, but i'm a curious person so i'll ask your opinion.

1) How much can a Merlin Carry?

2) how much would you save if the thing didn't have to move?

I was just wondering if it would be possible to make a "mini-sosus" Basicly the sonar array you'd use for the UUV, except you'd ditch the engine and give it a set of buoyancy tank. Sink...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (Scouse) — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:11:08 GMT

"The sea state issue is a lot harder to deal with. My own thoughts are that that particlaular issue could be dealt with via towed array behind the USV, but thats just my opinion, I have no stats whatsoever to back that up"

The Spartan USV with the Thales FLASH HF already is a towed array. Uses a rather odd over-the-bows line deployment system presumably so it doesnt foul on the outboards. Having spent lots of time driving rhibs I can...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (Scouse) — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:54:37 GMT

Okay, finally got a bit of time.

The whole point of the UUV was raised by the question of what ASW is going to look like going forward and in response to the issue of whether our next-generation primary ASW combattant, lets call it C1 for sake of ease, needs to be a son-of-T23 and as capable in all regards.

We've been lucky here having the opfor involved in the reparte in the form of Kev!. He has obliquely confirmed that the higher frequencies, in active search, offer...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:41:24 GMT

IIRC the USV was limited to 8hrs endurance and could only deploy its array in conditions up to Sea State 2.

Thats a platform issue, not the systems inside it, a more stable boat can be produced if the need is there, as can more fuel for a systems endurance, its it's subsystems that would interest me at this moment.

But I would agree that networked sensors is vital for ASW in the littoral, and as such a system of systems approach would wield several...

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (drunknsubmrnr) — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 22:49:15 GMT

The sea state issue is a lot harder to deal with. My own thoughts are that that particlaular issue could be dealt with via towed array behind the USV, but thats just my opinion, I have no stats whatsoever to back that up. If you were willing to come over here and stand a couple of pints, I could put you with a couple of acoustics techs that would drink the pints and say either something similar or something different. AFAIK, nobodies tried running a VDS from a RHIB. Sounds like fun though....

Re: UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (Scouse) — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:15:48 GMT

Yeah likely to be a good call Zen, though I believe UUV/USV to be an integral component of C1 and therefore relevant to that thread, it is turning into something of a blunt instrument!.

Its going to be a few hours til I have the time to summarise that component of the topic, comprehensively, to make this make sense I'm afraid though.

"And have you considered USV instead, a surface unammned vehicle?"

Yes we've discussed the Thales ASW...

UUV - USVs

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:48:43 GMT

Scouse the FSC thread is spralling and I've missed too much to trawl through it. Besides which I'm not sure we should let a debate on UUV's dominate that thread so.

So for this old cumudgeon can you just interate what you think this UUV is and what its made up of?

And have you considered USV instead, a surface unammned vehicle?