What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Fri, 23 May 2008 17:39:47 GMT

CliffS wrote:

Admiral Beez wrote:

bager1968 wrote:
Canberras would be the largest/heaviest bomber-type Israel would find useful in the 1950s...A-5s in the 1960s, and F-111s in the 1970/80s.
For British strikers, Canberras in the 1950s, Buccs in the 1960s, Jaguar in the 1970s,...

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (CliffS) — Fri, 23 May 2008 16:25:45 GMT

Admiral Beez wrote:

bager1968 wrote:
Canberras would be the largest/heaviest bomber-type Israel would find useful in the 1950s...A-5s in the 1960s, and F-111s in the 1970/80s.
For British strikers, Canberras in the 1950s, Buccs in the 1960s, Jaguar in the 1970s, followed by Tornado GRI through to today.

Once again, the political...

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Thu, 22 May 2008 22:08:59 GMT

bager1968 wrote:
Canberras would be the largest/heaviest bomber-type Israel would find useful in the 1950s...A-5s in the 1960s, and F-111s in the 1970/80s.

For British strikers, Canberras in the 1950s, Buccs in the 1960s, Jaguar in the 1970s, followed by Tornado GRI through to today.

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (bager1968) — Thu, 22 May 2008 20:25:31 GMT

Canberras would be the largest/heaviest bomber-type Israel would find useful in the 1950s...A-5s in the 1960s, and F-111s in the 1970/80s.

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Obi Wan Russell) — Thu, 22 May 2008 10:42:00 GMT

I wouldn't have thought they would have had any use for a Vulcan, Too big basically. All Israels enemies are on her doorstep and a Vulcan is better suited to hitting targets much further away. Great if Israel goes to war with China, otherwise just a big target for Arab fighters. Israel needs fighter bombers that can be bought in large numbers, scrambled quickly and get to their targets without being shot down to deliver devastating counterstrikes. Even with these types they were...

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (emc) — Thu, 22 May 2008 05:17:24 GMT

Admiral Beez wrote:
Would the Israelis have any use for the Avro Vulcan? They would have entered RAF service only a few years prior to Israel's late 1950s interest in British aircraft? Perhaps a medium range strategic bomber doesn't make sense to Israel, but the Vulcan's 21,000 lb bomb load could do some damage.

I suspect that the Eisenhower administration would have lobbied quite hard against...

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Thu, 22 May 2008 04:58:54 GMT

Would the Israelis have any use for the Avro Vulcan? They would have entered RAF service only a few years prior to Israel's late 1950s interest in British aircraft? Perhaps a medium range strategic bomber doesn't make sense to Israel, but the Vulcan's 21,000 lb bomb load could do some damage. Of course, and in-flight refueling Victor would be nice too, but that's not going to happen for a decade or two.

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Thu, 22 May 2008 04:55:13 GMT

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Tue, 20 May 2008 13:55:18 GMT

Last I heard the orriginal 30mm guns on the SeaVixen had to a lot of recoil problems, solved naturaly enough with the use of a block of wood.

Like I said, AI.18 needs more work done on it.

Would be interesting to see if EE give Israel their ideas on giving the Lightning more stores carry points, EE did trail locations either side the bulged slipper tank, with mockup bulpups and 1,000lb bombs. So its possible you'd see some indiginous Israeli efforts to enhance the...

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Obi Wan Russell) — Tue, 20 May 2008 13:25:11 GMT

I'd pick the Sea Vixen over the Javelin any day, RAF pilots who flew both types alawys came down on the Vixen's side. The Javelin was designed before the delta wing concept was fully understood and the T-Tail turned out to be not only unnecessary in most flight regimes but contributed to stall characteristics in hard turns. The Vixen was originally designed with four 30mm Aden cannon which were dropped before production started and two retractable unguided rocket packs were...

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (CliffS) — Tue, 20 May 2008 00:14:47 GMT

Admiral Beez wrote:
Ouch, well, how will Javelins and Swifts do against the Arab MiGs? I'd have thought that a few Lightnings would be possible.

As pointed out earlier on this board, the IAF would probably attain air superiority regardless of the aircraft types flown. However ... didn't the Saudis order a number of Lightnings in the mid-1960s? I'm sure that politics would have killed that deal for...

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Sun, 18 May 2008 16:07:34 GMT

Ouch, well, how will Javelins and Swifts do against the Arab MiGs? I'd have thought that a few Lightnings would be possible.

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (CliffS) — Sun, 18 May 2008 12:59:50 GMT

Speculation on the Israelis buying Javelin could be fascinating. It never fired its guns in anger IIRC, but it was a huge, robust airframe with good load-carrying potential. I'm sure the Israelis would've been able to improve it with operational experience to draw on. The Brits were still developing it as it entered squadron service. So that would be my pick for the UK arming the IAF: Preferably the Lightning for air-superiority (Javelin if Lightning not available in the required...

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Sun, 18 May 2008 11:49:40 GMT

Components of the thin wing Hunter where produced, an actual machine was in production when the cancelation came through and Hawkers converted it into a normal Hunter.

Supermarines Type 545 was also substantialy near completion when canceled.

However considering that it would be the UK financing any Israeli purchase, I suspect the most likely option is ex-RAF Javelins and Swifts straight from the production line. That or just Attackers and Venoms.

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Sun, 18 May 2008 02:26:49 GMT

Well, let's stick to aircraft that actually made it into British production and service. The Israelis won't order enough of the British "what if" planes to justify production in the absence of British orders.

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Sat, 17 May 2008 16:23:12 GMT

I did mention the thin wing Hunter. Which is perhaps more suited to their needs.

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (CliffS) — Sat, 17 May 2008 15:30:41 GMT

Zen9 wrote:
Sea Vixen, seems AI.18 had troubles with integration of a illuminator for SARH missiles, if the Israelis get this, then perhaps they can fix that?

In terms of a SeaVixen DH110 order they could do so from the early 50's. DH would love to have such an order.

Javelin or Canberra?

Swift may be the better machine for low level attack/recce and is a rugged machine.
...

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Sat, 17 May 2008 01:44:45 GMT

Sea Vixen, seems AI.18 had troubles with integration of a illuminator for SARH missiles, if the Israelis get this, then perhaps they can fix that?

In terms of a SeaVixen DH110 order they could do so from the early 50's. DH would love to have such an order.

Javelin or Canberra?

Swift may be the better machine for low level attack/recce and is a rugged machine.

Lightnings seem ideal, for such a small country.

Add in AWA.166 and Fairey Delta...

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (CliffS) — Fri, 16 May 2008 04:46:59 GMT

The Lightning was aptly named - it was all about speed. And yes, it was a superb dogfighter: typically British post-WWII defensive design, when the Brits were going to fight the Battle of Britain all over again, against the Soviets this time. In short, tailor-made for Israeli needs. It lacked a true CAS capability; perhaps the IAF would be interested in a few Hunter FGA9's?

Cheers,
Cliff

Re: What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Thu, 15 May 2008 23:57:14 GMT

The Lightnings would have been great in Israeli service. When your country is only 260 miles at its longest, and with three main air bases, endurance of 800 miles or less isn't that bad. Check out some videos of the Lightning...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-sDdVkGVDs&feature=related

What if Sweden or UK arms Israel's airforce i/o of France?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Fri, 09 May 2008 20:08:37 GMT

Israel bought Mirage fighters partly due to the refusal of other states to supply Israel with modern jet aircraft, other than France. Even France eventually closed its arms trade with Israel, giving rise to the clone Neser and Kfir. Let's say that instead of France, only Sweden agrees to provide modern jet fighters to the Israelis. How is the 1967 Six Days War and other wars affected?

In 1961 Israel ordered 72 Mirage IIIs, which were delivered in April 1962, with more deliveries...