Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (Nightwatch2) — Thu, 15 May 2008 00:35:45 GMT

"iirc, the A-4 had (roughly) the same level of performance as the A-7, so would I be making a leap of stupidity to assume that the A-4 would have the same problems as the A-7 in this scenario? "

absolutely.

"The whole thing changed with the arrival of the Bug? The F/A-18A with the APG-69 and AIM-7M could do some Bear hunting, and make things difficult for Badgers, Blinders, and Backfires. "

absolutely and again some! The Bug is designed for...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (seasick) — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:28:46 GMT

The whole thing changed with the arrival of the Bug? The F/A-18A with the APG-69 and AIM-7M could do some Bear hunting, and make things difficult for Badgers, Blinders, and Backfires.

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (emc) — Wed, 14 May 2008 19:08:20 GMT

Nightwatch2 wrote:

Kwajalein wrote:

Nightwatch2 wrote:

jemb wrote:
Were A-7 pilots trained to pick off less threatening targets such as Bears? I knew A-4s worked as fighters on CVSs, but hadn't thought of A-7s...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (Nightwatch2) — Wed, 14 May 2008 18:16:21 GMT

Kwajalein wrote:

Nightwatch2 wrote:

jemb wrote:
Were A-7 pilots trained to pick off less threatening targets such as Bears? I knew A-4s worked as fighters on CVSs, but hadn't thought of A-7s as such before.

I controlled A-7's against Bears on several...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (Kwajalein) — Wed, 14 May 2008 16:21:31 GMT

Nightwatch2 wrote:

jemb wrote:
Were A-7 pilots trained to pick off less threatening targets such as Bears? I knew A-4s worked as fighters on CVSs, but hadn't thought of A-7s as such before.

I controlled A-7's against Bears on several occasions.

Ah, the A-7... how I miss seeing her among carrier airwings. In...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (Nightwatch2) — Wed, 14 May 2008 00:38:32 GMT

jemb wrote:
Were A-7 pilots trained to pick off less threatening targets such as Bears? I knew A-4s worked as fighters on CVSs, but hadn't thought of A-7s as such before.

I controlled A-7's against Bears on several occasions.

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (jemb) — Wed, 14 May 2008 00:27:47 GMT

Were A-7 pilots trained to pick off less threatening targets such as Bears? I knew A-4s worked as fighters on CVSs, but hadn't thought of A-7s as such before.

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (Nightwatch2) — Wed, 14 May 2008 00:20:35 GMT

Moskit wrote:
Depends on your assumptions regarding the effectiveness of the weapon systems on both sides. Had this happened for real I strongly suspect that at least one side (and probably both) would have found itself severely embarrased at the actual ineffectiveness of its kit.

our assumptions for planning were not real high. I rather doubt that we would have been all that surprised by the eventual weapons...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (Moskit) — Wed, 14 May 2008 00:05:40 GMT

Depends on your assumptions regarding the effectiveness of the weapon systems on both sides. Had this happened for real I strongly suspect that at least one side (and probably both) would have found itself severely embarrased at the actual ineffectiveness of its kit.

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (Nightwatch2) — Thu, 08 May 2008 05:56:11 GMT

Yep. Hunting down Mr. Bear was the first and probably the key part of the battle.

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (seasick) — Thu, 08 May 2008 02:54:17 GMT

Take out the scouts and make the bombers search themselves. One Tu-22M taken out before launching its missiles is up to three AS-6 the CVBG doesn't have to worry about. The Soviet Tu-95 bombers are flying coffins.

Edit: When the scouts are shot down, the Soviet bombers have to search for targets by themselves. This means that they are going to have to burn fuel doing this. Most likely their fuel situation will force them to travel only at an efficient cruising speed and not go...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (Gernsback) — Wed, 07 May 2008 22:33:19 GMT

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the most value for the fighters come from their ability to take out the strike recon, strike commanders, and EW aircraft rather than simple numbers of missiles (especially as taking out recon and commanders is liable to prevent the CVBG from being attacked in the first place)?

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (Nightwatch2) — Wed, 07 May 2008 19:49:52 GMT

drunknsubmrnr wrote:
"coordinating in some wolfpack sort of tactic with the diesels"

Do you have any idea of just how hard it is to co-ordinate submarine operations?

"Against this the older CVBG's of the seventies or before would not be able to defend itself adequately, since the ASW capacity would be hampered by the AA activities, against the missiles, at the same time, making...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (drunknsubmrnr) — Wed, 07 May 2008 15:05:10 GMT

"coordinating in some wolfpack sort of tactic with the diesels"

Do you have any idea of just how hard it is to co-ordinate submarine operations?

"Against this the older CVBG's of the seventies or before would not be able to defend itself adequately, since the ASW capacity would be hampered by the AA activities, against the missiles, at the same time, making the group more likely to fall appart into chaos, rather than a coordinated unit. "

...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (seasick) — Wed, 07 May 2008 05:52:16 GMT

Considering the very long range they need to cover to engage the enemy bombers, propably escorted by some very long ranged fighters, even with the F-14 armed with the AIM-54, the changes to get down all bombers are slim.
. . .
At best the aircraft capable of active fighting of enemy aircraft and missiles could be at best some 2/3 of the entire airgroup, some 50 to 54 or so aircraft, with part of them either on their way to, or returning from the...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (E F Draaijers) — Tue, 06 May 2008 22:51:36 GMT

Theoretically the use of the CVBG's aircraft was offcourse the first line of defense, but the aircraft are not that numerous, since it is close to impossible to have all airborne and ready for AAW at the same time, while part of the airgroup is not even equipped for AAW missions at all. Aircraft expend fuel and have to refuel every now and then, either in the air or on the deck, while they also need time to rearm, after expending their missiles. At best the aircraft capable of active...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (drunknsubmrnr) — Tue, 06 May 2008 17:15:58 GMT

Maybe the second point(and that's debatable), but the first and third have no bearing whatsoever on Iraq.

Kevin

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Tue, 06 May 2008 17:07:33 GMT

emc wrote:

...and an opponent willing to take roughly 10 times the casualties as the US, several US administrations that could not explain why fighting in Vietnam was worthwhile, and a largely valid perception that the SSS was rigged in favor of the well-to-do.

Ouch. I know that comparisons with Vietnam are debatable and unpopular, but doesn't that sound like the...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (borys68) — Tue, 06 May 2008 11:58:25 GMT

Ahoj!
Harpoon - good times that ....

20 Backfires and 20-25 Bears - that's 80-100 missiles, IIRC - usually bagged a carrier.

The trick was to get 3 Bears with turned off radar within detection range (passive detectors told me where the Hawkeye was). And have the missile equipped planes just behind them. Then the radar planes did a pop-up and turn on their radar. The moment a ship was detected, I started firing missiles in penny packets. That attracted the Phoenix...

Re: Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (StewartG) — Tue, 06 May 2008 11:41:02 GMT

Well my only experience of this was playing things like "Harpoon", "2nd Fleet" and the like, so my views aren't worth too much.

However it always seemed that a US CVBG was a hard, risky target for SNA. In the early stages of a fight it always seemed more likely that they would hit the softer targets first - convoys, phib groups, any French or British CVG / CVSGs which could be located.

In the latter case: 8 SHAR FRS.1s with 4 x Sidewinder each,...

Were Soviet anti-CBG tactics likely to succeed?

feeds@yuku.com (Admiral Beez) — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:42:15 GMT

During the Cold War, the USSR's plan to take out USN carrier battle groups was to attack with large numbers of Bear-guided, missile-armed Tupolev Tu-22M jets and cruise-missile-armed submarines. By the mid-1980s, given the effectiveness of AWACS-directed Phoenix-armed F-14s, Ticonderoga missile cruisers and lastly ship-based CIWS, how likely was a Soviet attack to succeed?

Of course it's a numbers game, with the Soviet trying to send in more missiles than the USN defences...