Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Nathan) — Wed, 07 May 2008 23:39:25 GMT

Of course just because the RN isn't optimized for blue-water war against a moderately powerful enemy fleet doesn't mean it can't do it - the SSNs alone should be enough to send most other fleets back to port and it wouldn't take long to bolt the Harpoon launchers onto the T45s and load up some JSF with anti-ship missiles. Actually, based on the UK's past record at predicting future threats and preparing for them, I'd say a major blue-water naval war is almost certain...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Colin Mc) — Tue, 06 May 2008 14:17:56 GMT

Nathan, spot on.
The UK's Defence role is now to influence "War among the People", to nick the phrase from Rupert Smith. Nuclear weapons have banished full-scale industrial war and to stay banished the first priority is the continuance of the nuclear deterrent which means other forces can then be organised along more modest lines. The aim of those forces is to influence a political outcome in some distant land. This implies intervention of one sort or another. It may be...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Nathan) — Mon, 05 May 2008 23:00:24 GMT

mediadave wrote:
Why do we actually need a new design of Lynx? Have the Russian's or Chinese suddenly leapfrogged us with a new design of helicopter? No - they and everyone else are still using the same helicopters that they were in the early eighties. If we need to replace our current fleet due to wear and tear, why not just manufacture more Lynxs - perhaps with a few engine changes to make it more efficient, etc.
...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Anthony58) — Mon, 05 May 2008 13:21:21 GMT

Astute nuclear core lasts the lifetime of the submarine and therefore expensive refuelling is not needed. It would be cheaper if bought in larger numbers with a shorter drum beat (less than the current 22 months) and the the government signed an order for the whole class.

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Bledlow) — Mon, 05 May 2008 12:11:48 GMT

CVA02 wrote:
.... The same unit cost issue applies to the Lynx, which without a doubt makes the type far too expensive to be commercially competitive, as it always has. .

Which is why it has been bought by the navies, coastguards, etc. of Argentina, Brazil, Denmark, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Portugal, S. Africa, S. Korea & Thailand. I wonder how many customers it would...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Jimlad1) — Mon, 05 May 2008 11:27:45 GMT

Simple reason not to build old tech is that the vessels were manufactured using older kit which is no longer in production. Start rooting round replacing immensely complex systems with upgrades and things get even more messy than they do with a new design entirely.
Also, the reason we buy hi tech is that its capabilities are war winners and bring us influence with the US - lose that influence and we're properly screwed on any major operations that we do.

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Alexius55) — Mon, 05 May 2008 10:57:28 GMT

About the T45- the Type 42 is definitely outmoded in an age when large numbers of nations have AEGIS. Sea Dart is of little use against sea-skimmers, which are not a "phantom threat" today, and is generally an old and obsolete system- it entered service in 1973! Perhaps it would have been cheaper to buy AEGIS, but that may have been just as expensive and would have reduced British defence independence.
An "air-defence-oriented T23"? Would that be with Sea Wolf?...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (mediadave) — Sun, 04 May 2008 23:21:20 GMT

Why do we actually need a new design of Lynx? Have the Russian's or Chinese suddenly leapfrogged us with a new design of helicopter? No - they and everyone else are still using the same helicopters that they were in the early eighties. If we need to replace our current fleet due to wear and tear, why not just manufacture more Lynxs - perhaps with a few engine changes to make it more efficient, etc.

Feel free to show me the error of this argument, but I think that's been a...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Rob) — Sun, 04 May 2008 18:58:56 GMT

The same unit cost issue applies to the Lynx, which without a doubt makes the type far too expensive to be commercially competitive, as it always has.

So how did it export to 16 nations with about 180 units? With sales still happening. In the mid 1990s the backlog was 40+ units just with exports. With a better and more modern product such as FLynx this can come back. The problem is a lot of Brits complain about supporting domestic products and a few...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (CVA02) — Sun, 04 May 2008 15:54:06 GMT

Dickon M wrote:
A quick question- why not use Merlin? Why not just order 30 or 40 or however many that are needed. There's a factory in GB that can make them, hundreds of employees that rely on that factory for jobs, and it's a modern design that's already in use with the RN and the RAF. What am I missing? Is it too expensive? Too big? At the risk of sounding trite, why not buy British?

(Grabs coat...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Jim WH) — Sun, 04 May 2008 15:40:22 GMT

IIRC, the primary role for Gazelle now is training: i.e it's cheaper to train on a small (i.e. fuel efficient) helicopter you already have in stock than it is to train with one that you need elsewhere. Also, I believe it has a liaison role in non-operational areas (e.g. UK and Germany, basically), and to simulate other types in those same areas. When the fleet is properly knackered then something will need to be found to replace them in those roles (training, and rear area operational...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Rich C) — Sun, 04 May 2008 13:54:45 GMT

Why not, indeed replace the Junglie force with Merlin? Cash, that the only answer. I've been told that currently you can have the rear ramp or the folding tail rotor, but not both. Not sure how much design work would be needed to rectify this.

Secondly, can anyone tell me why on earth the AAC are still flying considerable numbers of Gazelle. Before anyone says observation/utility, no they're not. They're not deployed in Iraq of Afghanistan. Their only observation...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Obi Wan Russell) — Sun, 04 May 2008 13:52:48 GMT

I'd love to see a large order for Merlins, the Sea King solution is about getting more transport helos into service this year, after a few months refurbishment. Ordering Merlins now means at least two years before they reach the frontline. By all means lets order them now, and start pulling the SKs out of storage now to meet the needs of the forces this year.

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Dickon M) — Sun, 04 May 2008 06:03:05 GMT

A quick question- why not use Merlin? Why not just order 30 or 40 or however many that are needed. There's a factory in GB that can make them, hundreds of employees that rely on that factory for jobs, and it's a modern design that's already in use with the RN and the RAF. What am I missing? Is it too expensive? Too big? At the risk of sounding trite, why not buy British?

(Grabs coat and heads for the bunker)

Dickon M

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Bledlow) — Sat, 03 May 2008 20:25:58 GMT

Jim WH wrote:
...In the short term pulling old SeaKing out of storage may be the best of a bad set of options. ...

What scope is there for increasing the availability of the current fleet of helicopters. I recently saw a list of current types, & their availability rates, & although I can't remember any numbers, I do remember being very surprised indeed at how low some were.

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Jim WH) — Sat, 03 May 2008 14:48:15 GMT

Actually Obi, the division of rotary wing assets between services is as follows:
-Attack and Light Utility: Army Air Corp [currently Apache, Lynx, and Gazelle]
-Medium and Heavy Lift: RAF [currently Puma, Merlin, and Chinook]
-Amphibious Light Utility and Medium Lift: Fleet Air Arm [currently Lynx, Gazelle, and SeaKing]
So, logically, if AW 149 were procured as part of FRC (Lift), then they'd be allocated to the RAF.

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Obi Wan Russell) — Sat, 03 May 2008 12:46:36 GMT

As I said, the Sea King proposal was a stop gap holding action only, but would get more transport helos to the frontline relatively quickly. It would buy time, the one commodity the government is REALLY short of in this respect. One thing is for sure, they cannot get away with buying less helos than are currently available for service, the numbers argument has been put beyond doubt (if only we could do that in so many other categories...) so I'd like to see the current CHF Sea King fleet...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Jim WH) — Sat, 03 May 2008 10:04:50 GMT

The longer-term solution to FRC (Lift) is simple enough: money. Because as is, Puma and SeaKing will not last forever (upgrades or not) and eventually there'll be no physical way to keep them flying, therefore a replacement is (in actual fact) completely unavoidable without vivisecting JHC. I'd suggest that splitting the FRC (Lift) buy into a heavy (Merlin) and light (AW 149 or equivalent) component is probably the best way forward, combined with an upgrade of the Chinook fleet to the...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Obi Wan Russell) — Sat, 03 May 2008 04:14:12 GMT

hulahoop7 wrote:
Apparently its given the kings a 'new lease of life' and made a substantial improvement.... Now how many old ASW types do we still have in storage?

Dozens! According to the Demobbed website quite a large proportion are still relatively intact and in storage, though for how much longer is hard to say. The rest have been reduced to spares but I think the RN has kept enough back to cover for...

Re: Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (hulahoop7) — Fri, 02 May 2008 19:47:26 GMT

Apparently its given the kings a 'new lease of life' and made a substantial improvement.... Now how many old ASW types do we still have in storage?

Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

feeds@yuku.com (Anthony58) — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 01:59:49 GMT

Contracts at risk in crisis over budget

By Sylvia Pfeifer, Alex Barker and Stephen Fidler

Published: April 28 2008 04:24

The Ministry of Defence is preparing to order a formal review of equipment programmes that could lead to billions of pounds' worth of orders being shelved or delayed. This follows a budget crisis that has left the ministry struggling to balance its books.

The big contracts slated for the review include a £1bn programme for the...