State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Sat, 03 May 2008 01:54:41 GMT

Well in comparison say.

Fairey Delta III is more primative than the F4K in radar and missile technology. Red Hebe is unlikely to enter service with the full spec, able to switch from SARH to ARH at 4nm, they where finding it too difficult at the time. But its possible they could achieve it later on in the 60s. Though its likely the AI18-lightweight set, would have a 40inch dish
A possible alternative might be the US system used on the 'fighter' Blackbird, with AIM-47...

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Craiglxviii) — Fri, 02 May 2008 19:17:10 GMT

Zen9,

thanks very much, a really interesting read.

So, there we have it. No EE Lightning, no Tornado, probably no Jaguar. Probably EFA Typhoon. Instead, a range of pointier, sleeker, faster, generally "before their time" a/c.

Thanks all for some in depth posts.

Craig

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:45:58 GMT

For the specifics look at this which explains things properly.

http://www.stevebroadbent.net/036a.pdf

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Craiglxviii) — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:36:27 GMT

IN response to Zen9... can anyone help please on the type and capabilities of the AD and nav/ attack computer(s) for the A-6? Specifically, how appropriate they would have been for the TSR.2 in both conventional and nuclear strike.

Many thanks.

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:10:16 GMT

Was that the Elliot computer? I forget the number, if so then yes, even at the time the people working on the Verdans knew of the new US computer and thought it was a far better option for the job.
As it was the Verdans where set up to use virtual memory to perform the operations required, using tape for storage (unique I think and an appling solution to a lack of memory), and as you can imagine this was rather slow.

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Craiglxviii) — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 15:09:31 GMT

Zen9,

as the A-6 was under development in the late 50's and being put into service by early to mid-60's, could TSR.2 not take advantage of its' computers? I recall they were awkward in development but the most advanced aerial digital computers by the time of introduction to service...

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:43:21 GMT

I'll deal with the others and later projects than the '57 cancelations here.

First off lets look at Hawkers P1121, frankly a good intermediate machine between the Starfighter and the Phantom II. Real potential there for RAF and export orders. But work was effectively stopped in 1958 and proposals for variants dried up in 1960.
A better bet for a large 30" dish toting radar equiped fighter for the RAF instead of more Lightnings, the best opening is probably in...

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Craiglxviii) — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 19:58:07 GMT

Hi all,

firstly (and very quickly as am popping out) Getz, I know the F-111 didn't serve in the RAF, but it was considered at one point, knowing TSR.2 out of the running, until the specific variant was cancelled by the USAF.

Back later to reply further!

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:17:04 GMT

In terms of development potential I see the Saro P177 has having more than the Lightning, and is a better fit for a Hunter replacement.

Level speed on a Gyron Junior AT SEA LEVEL is mach 0.97, strongly suggestive of a higher maximum speed at 36,000ft thanks in no small part to the inlet design. Removal of the rocket is rather obvious and probably would occure on the late development machines, likely following the German use of the RB133 Avon instead of the Gyron Junior for higher...

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (F35B) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:15:34 GMT

I definitely recommend the tony buttler books i recently borrowed British secret projects and an aircraft book by buttler from the library and they were a brilliant read. Must be some of the best books out there. They are full of loads of info about planes I've never even heard of.

If the supersonic harrier had worked and made production i think it would still be around today. Also there should be alot of room for development as it is new technology. possibilities are endless....

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Red Admiral) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:46:19 GMT

Any suggestion for books to read more about these neverwere British aircraft?

British Secret Projects series by Tony Buttler. One covers postwar fighters and the other bombers.

TSR2 wasn't cancelled because of the 1957 review, it was cancelled because it was realised that it was going to be an extremely expensive aircraft to deliver 6x1000lb bombs and the money was needed for the ballistic missile submarines. Although a great aircraft, there was no...

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (miketr) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 05:05:14 GMT

Any suggestion for books to read more about these neverwere British aircraft?

Michael

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (emc) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:37:45 GMT

No cancellations? Even of wasteful, redundant, or completely unsuccessful aircraft? It could well have ended up with so many disparate types in service that getting significant serviceability for any of them would be impossible.

On a more sensible level -- where wasteful, redundant, or unsuccessful* projects can be canceled, I suspect that the RAF would probably have recently taken the TSR2 out of service and the USMC and USN would be flying P.1154's.

...

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Getz) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:51:22 GMT

The Supersonic Buccaneer might see the light of day, and would probably fill the TSR 2 requirement. I doubt the SR.177 would be viable in the long term meaning air defence is split between the EE Lighting and Fairey Delta III.

Development of a Lightning successor begins in the 60's and results in a British "Teen Series" equivalent, which would ultimately replace both the Lightning and Delta III.

With the native aerospace industry still going strong, there...

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Zen9) — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:03:18 GMT

If...

If the 1957 cancelations do not go through then we're in a very different world.

Faireys massive Delta III is going to enter service in the 1960s, with superlative performance and Red Hebe AAMs matched to a developed AI.18 radar. Lightning numbers will never reach the total production run of 330 as in our world nor will the F4 be of much interest to the RAF.
Thats about 160 Fighters or nearabouts.
Likely the GOR339 spec is wrapped around a variant...

Re: State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Alexius55) — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:27:48 GMT

The supersonic Harrier was the P.1154.
And does this include the Avro 730?

State of the RAF now, given no cancellations 1957-1965

feeds@yuku.com (Craiglxviii) — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:39:31 GMT

Question for the board.

Where do you think the RAF would be now, assuming that TSR2, the Hawker P.1152 (supersonic Harrier, correct me if I have the designation wrong please) etc. had entered squadron service? Would we have still seen Tornado and Jaguar in the 80's? Would the F-111 have been brought in in the 70's? In what state would this have left Britain's military aviation industry by the mid to late 80's?

Please feel free to expound.